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muddysneakers: ...
HSL, why didn't you try to save mchack since you seemed to believe him?
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when you read the mod qt thread

you'll see that, HSL already used up his 1-shot doctor for gogtrial N1 (edit: and even got blocked - that mafia team sure had some fine picks on who to block and kill. funnily enough no doctor ever successfully protected a townie this game :/ (also the admin thread is funny for the pms. That poem for spf is just hilarious. and the way zfr contnued the joke :D)
Post edited October 18, 2018 by mchack
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JoeSapphire: what advantages could secret-access-to-scumchat grant the non-mafia lover? I'm not sure we benefitted from it particularly, other than me sending gogtrial secret salutations, which was very enjoyable.
It's a separate pair of eyes getting to review the unfiltered material. Different people have different perceptions, and the non-mafia lover might spot something the mafia lover didn't.

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ZFR: This applies to all setups with variable winning conditions. e.g. If my best chance of winning in a cult game is to get recruited and have my win condition changed, you can be sure I'll be trying my darned best to get recruited.
And you have just hit upon one of the big issues with cult games. If you, as a townie, are actively trying to get recruited, then you aren't actually playing toward your current win condition. You're playing for the cult and what you HOPE will be your win condition. :)

My personal decision for cult games has generally been "Try to play such that I'm screwed if I get recruited", since that behavior plays toward what is my current win condition.

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ZFR: If I win and learn my opponent could have easily won using an in-game mechanic but chose to be a "good sport" and not use it, I'd feel my win a bit undeserved. And be a bit pissed at my opponent. But more pissed at the mod for a setup that puts me in a no-win situation (I either lose; or get an "undeserved" win so it's a lose-lose).
I understand the feeling of being cheated into a win.

Of course, you'd already be aware that different people have different tolerance levels for cheese, and different opinions on what constitutes cheesy tactics and whether they should be used. Sometimes, solution is just for the players to agree not to use game breaking strategies because it isn't feasible to try and ban them (ex. using RL as an excuse).

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ZFR: (And I sincerely hope my game was the former; maybe swingy and unbalanced but at least fun to play).
I enjoyed it. I especially liked the flavor in the PMs.

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JoeSapphire: also that scene lied about being in a meeting at work when he wrote his claim: that's hilarious.
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bler144: I read that and wasn't going to comment, but I think it's actually problematic.

When people make claims about RL we generally honor them as true because calling people out for RL is shitty and generally sucks to be on the receiving end of.

Lying about RL as an in-game strat...is a very dangerous door to open.
I'd say it is more going to be a problem for him, a la "The Boy That Cried Wolf". He might not be believed next time, even if it is true.
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Bookwyrm627: ...
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ZFR: OK. I can understand where you're coming from. Though personally I feel a bit differently.

I play for my win condition, and that's it. I expect you and all players to try your best to play for a win and that's it. So if I'm ever lovers with you (I mean in-game lovers!) then "I play for my win" is all you're going to hear from me; no gentlemanly agreements of any kind.

This applies to all setups with variable winning conditions. e.g. If my best chance of winning in a cult game is to get recruited and have my win condition changed, you can be sure I'll be trying my darned best to get recruited.

If I win and learn my opponent could have easily won using an in-game mechanic but chose to be a "good sport" and not use it, I'd feel my win a bit undeserved. And be a bit pissed at my opponent. But more pissed at the mod for a setup that puts me in a no-win situation (I either lose; or get an "undeserved" win so it's a lose-lose).

Conversely I'd never hold it against my opponent for using an in-game "cheesy" tactic to beat me. If anyone, the mod is to blame for making a setup which allows such cheesy play.

But all that applies only to in-game "lying". A gentlemanly agreement made outside the game is to be respected, period. If my opponent has a real life situation that would make him unavailable and I make a gentlemanly promise that I won't hammer while he's gone; then I'd never hammer while he's gone, my win condition be damned. (And any player lying in such a way would deserve more than tit-for-tat in my book; do it purposefully multiple times and you get into my "won't play with" list).
The thing is it's Scum tactics to lurk. And then they have to make up a reason why their lurking and it will have to be a lie more often than not.

I did lie about being in a meeting when I was writing my claim. Is this considered cheating? If so next time I will do it well in advance.
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supplementscene: The thing is it's Scum tactics to lurk. And then they have to make up a reason why their lurking and it will have to be a lie more often than not.
If you are lurking, then own up to lurking. Don't give some RL lie about why you were lurking.

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supplementscene: I did lie about being in a meeting when I was writing my claim. Is this considered cheating? If so next time I will do it well in advance.
Lying about RL difficulties is asking for trouble. Lie about your in-game alignment, your powers, your reads, your buddies, your enemies, but don't lie about RL. We're on the honor system about reporting RL problems that are preventing us from playing as we would otherwise like to play.
Oh boy, I got killed off so early I totally forgot about the game after :D I have to go back and see what happened but I see Lovers won so gg to them but also to all others, as well.

Thanks, ZFR for hosting!
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JoeSapphire: what advantages could secret-access-to-scumchat grant the non-mafia lover? I'm not sure we benefitted from it particularly, other than me sending gogtrial secret salutations, which was very enjoyable.
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Bookwyrm627: It's a separate pair of eyes getting to review the unfiltered material. Different people have different perceptions, and the non-mafia lover might spot something the mafia lover didn't.
What sort of things would get overlooked that it would be an advantage to know? The mafia generally aren't trying to hide anything in the scumchat...
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Bookwyrm627: It's a separate pair of eyes getting to review the unfiltered material. Different people have different perceptions, and the non-mafia lover might spot something the mafia lover didn't.
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JoeSapphire: What sort of things would get overlooked that it would be an advantage to know? The mafia generally aren't trying to hide anything in the scumchat...
Hm, good point.

I don't know. I'm sure there would be some important clues or something!
I just want to note for completeness that I misstated/misremebered the scum strategy Lift had employed previously: it didn't regard RVS specifically, which was the error I had made. For anyone interested, I believe #53's scumchat contains details about how Lift constructs his factitious claims against players whilst playing as scum. It's certainly got a lot of great insights from yogs on the philosophy of being scum.
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trentonlf: ...
What was your plan that you mentioned in the observer thread? I'm curious.
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mchack: that mafia team sure had some fine picks on who to block and kill.
Yes, trent made excellent picks as Cop in #54 (scum-you + another mafia), then in this #55 game block one-shot-doc then block you-doc and kill Cop.
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ZFR: What was your plan that you mentioned in the observer thread? I'm curious.
If I had made it another day alive I was going to lay out why I felt gogtrial and Joe were either a mafia/town or a mafia/mafia pair and not a town/town pair and that they should be the next lynch, it was going to be because of how Joe was not really doing any real scum hunting on his own but relying on gogtrial to carry them through because of how townie he looked. Joe was scum hiding behind the claim of Lovers that everyone just assumed was a town/town pair.

If it failed and I was the lynch it would have finished how it did and gogtrial and Joe would have still won, but if it worked I felt I could probably make it to the end on my own. If I was able to secure the gogtrial/Joe lynch that night I would have NK'd SirPrimalform and then pushed for HSL's lynch the next day (bookwyrm should have been the lynch on the day I was and we would have NK'd flub that night). The last day would have been interesting as HSL is very hard to lynch, gogtiral and Joe got lucky to lynch Hyper IMO.