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timppu: Here in Finland the discussion is quite much about whether our social security is "too good" ... one is applying for them.
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kohlrak: The same discussion is happening here, and I did the math before based on gas prices, etc, when i was working at the kosher chicken factory, and I found out that when couples were working together living paycheck to paycheck paying a babysitter to raise their kids for them, my mother was able to, after the cost of working, make more money than either individual, and your pay goes up for each kid you pop out (there's a cap to keep it from being too lucrative, but think about the implications for a minute): you make more money on welfare than working a job where you might not know your schedule from one day to the next ('cause that's how the place was run), where the company was known for finding ways to fire you for injuries (I could tell the most sickening stories of the place), etc. As a result, i have plenty of respect for the people who work there without criminal records: everyone there knows they'd make more money on welfare.

Meanwhile, the sister of one of the workers was on welfare, and rumor has it that she was the one who established and owned the family restaurant, but it was registered in his name, because it would've influenced her welfare payout. To be fair, regardless of rumor, he did manage the place to a respectable degree as far as we could tell, and this ended up getting him a promotion to supervisor in the company he works for full time (still the chicken factory). But, who knows, maybe he manages the company by phone while doing his day job in the company, and we just don't know about it (otherwise a great guy, though, and the food's great, too).

Hogwash. I've discussed ... workforce just need to pick the people from the list.
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kohlrak: Right, and this is where the US is much, much different.

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timppu: Has it been analyzed ... exceptional people.
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kohlrak: Sounds like when I was rejected for assistant of the IT person at the nursing home I was working for. There was actually someone more qualified than me, i'll concede, but he was one of the CNAs. They ended up hiring someone outside of the company for the position. I came to the conclusion, there, that they liked us to know our place and stay in the positions we were already working. So much for "working your way up," which is the advice all the boomers always gave me.

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LiquidOxygen80: Basically, we ... and people keep coming and going.
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kohlrak: So, basically, the company has unrealistic hiring standards for most positons, but that sheepskin suddenly becomes magick qualification for higher positions?

But, to answer your question: probably not. Usually the people behind these messes are HR people, whom have to go out of their way to justify their positions (at the nursing home i worked for, he was almost never there, because he was doing busy work outside of the building [i saw the CEO way more often, and he was known to actually work with bottom level employees like me, just to be nice, and he even wrote me a card by hand when my mother had passed, and he actually talked to me about improving my future, because he believe the work i was doing was beneath my skills, though i never told the HR person that he said as much]). To be fair, everyone's taking orders from above, even the CEO, so I really can't tell where this crap usually comes from, but i've heard supervisors going after the HR reps as well in companies.
Not really. They've even started hiring people with mental handicaps and one known sex offender, they've become so desperate to get people in the door. So far, only the sex offender is still with the company. We don't have a CEO locally, and our HR department is largely outsourced back to HQ, as they started to push that role onto supervisors directly, until they realized that that was leaving enforcement up to the whims of individuals, as opposed to strict policy, as individual supervisors have differing interpretations thereof, with some being much stricter, some inclined to show favoritism towards their super performers, yada, yada.

Our HR's scope is fairly limited, as they've been cut back to mainly mediation, new hire processing, wellness benefits reps, and hugely serious infractions, which they generally don't even rule on anymore, forwarding it to their bosses back at HQ. (Example, one long time supervisor was legitimately creating a hostile work environment back in a fairly crucial support department that fabricates a lot of parts for assembly, as well as overseeing the automated painting process for those parts. Long story short, he had gotten so bad about making his employees feel insecure in their jobs, that good workers were constantly bidding out of his department, or off his shift completely, until a friend of mine filed a harassment report, with things since having calmed down.) Things like this are now entirely out of their scope and they don't generally participate in the rulings on issues like that.
This always seems to be the big one at the end of the day: HR people have a tough job of having to evaluate people and their worth, and given their responsibilities and their expectations, they are expected to err on the side of safety: you don't get fired for passing up talent, but you do get fired if you hire someone who's completely incompetent and costs the company money. Instead of trying to make it easier for HR by making standardized qualifications tests that the HR people can apply, or by having HR people work with department heads who are close enough to the job to evaluate skill on a practical level, we, in turn, filter them out by whether or not they got a damn piece of paper.
This. They've actually done away with aptitude test requirements for a lot of our skilled jobs, which has backfired entirely, as the test generally provided the leadership team that handles the interviews for these jobs with a barrier to entry to keep entirely legitimately unqualified people out. (With the exceptions of maintenance based or mechanical jobs, as those still require passing the GAT in order to interview, as the company pays for your apprenticeship if chosen, along with any education needed, if necessary.)

Major difference where I'm at is that HR generally evaluates you on two primary factors: disciplinary actions in the past, and attendance. That's pretty much it. If you keep your nose clean and show up to work when you're scheduled, they'll generally be far more receptive to you.
Post edited July 14, 2018 by LiquidOxygen80
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LiquidOxygen80: Not really. They've even started hiring people with mental handicaps and one known sex offender, they've become so desperate to get people in the door. So far, only the sex offender is still with the company. We don't have a CEO locally, and our HR department is largely outsourced back to HQ, as they started to push that role onto supervisors directly, until they realized that that was leaving enforcement up to the whims of individuals, as opposed to strict policy, as individual supervisors have differing interpretations thereof, with some being much stricter, some inclined to show favoritism towards their super performers, yada, yada.
There's the real irony: i'm seeing the same thing. The nursing home i worked for hired known thieves to work positions. They even allowed a volunteer to work there that, because he molested the lesbian highschol student, we started locking the one door (he didn't do it at facility) to the facility that was normally kept unlocked to easily move trash in and out of the building, as she was in a court battle with the guy. I don't know how that turned out, as that was all going on as i was leaving the company, but it started over a month before I left, so the situation there was clearly bad. But, hey, at least they were qualified.
Our HR's scope is fairly limited, as they've been cut back to mainly mediation, new hire processing, wellness benefits reps, and hugely serious infractions, which they generally don't even rule on anymore, forwarding it to their bosses back at HQ. (Example, one long time supervisor was legitimately creating a hostile work environment back in a fairly crucial support department that fabricates a lot of parts for assembly, as well as overseeing the automated painting process for those parts. Long story short, he had gotten so bad about making his employees feel insecure in their jobs, that good workers were constantly bidding out of his department, or off his shift completely, until a friend of mine filed a harassment report, with things since having calmed down.) Things like this are now entirely out of their scope and they don't generally participate in the rulings on issues like that.
There's the flip side: in the case i describe with that nursing home, where I got turned down for IT, and so did a guy who supposedly was a patent holder for a certain technology (i didn't bother looking into it, so he could've been talking out of his rear, but since he was actually ahead of me, i'm inclined to believe him), the same thing was going on. So, regardles of how close HR is to the bottom, it's all still happening the same way. As for people feeling insecure about their jobs, i've seen distant HR with the same problem: usually this results from someone who bullies another by sending in complaints. In other words, if the HR person was a supervisor, or an equal level employee, the same thing would still happen. I heard a guy who almost lost his job, because a woman had her safety goggles strapped to her neck, but not on her face (thus they were laying on her chest, and I don't know how large or small it was), and he made the comment that they would be far more useful on her face (as per company safety policy, since it was a steel working plant). Everyone had to take a sexual harassment course, after that (though the supervisor kept his job and was excempt from taking it).
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LiquidOxygen80: This. They've actually done away with aptitude test requirements for a lot of our skilled jobs, which has backfired entirely, as the test generally provided the leadership team that handles the interviews for these jobs with a barrier to entry to keep entirely legitimately unqualified people out. (With the exceptions of maintenance based or mechanical jobs, as those still require passing the GAT in order to interview, as the company pays for your apprenticeship if chosen, along with any education needed, if necessary.)

Major difference where I'm at is that HR generally evaluates you on two primary factors: disciplinary actions in the past, and attendance. That's pretty much it. If you keep your nose clean and show up to work when you're scheduled, they'll generally be far more receptive to you.
If only: i'm not known for skipping work. At the kosher chicken factory, I always redeemed my vacation days (2 a year), and at the nursing home, i was also known for having a plethora of available PTO hours, to the degree that if I was off due to injury or if I wasn't being scheduled enough (i wasn't full time there), I was asked if I wanted to use my PTO to make up the loss of hours.

And, conveniently, the CNAs and higher were mandated to use their PTO towards holidays scheduled off: So, christmas counted against some people.
Post edited July 14, 2018 by kohlrak
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wpegg: Perhaps if they've got their course up to a standard you can't cheat then it's worthwhile, I just don't know how they'd manage that.
The test engine. It's designed to ensure that if you're able to fail, you will. The test is divided up into several sections (depending on the test subject, obviously) and each section will ask some number of questions. But if you get one wrong, the test will procedurally change, and ask more about that same subtopic, so if you've gone in and only skimmed the surface of a topic, you're going to end up getting asked a bunch of questions about it. And you can only miss a few questions and still pull a passing grade.

That's for the lower level. It's technically possible to cheat them - CCENT/CCNA is still a simple enough test that you can indeed hire surrogates. CCNP is a difficult test, though. And CCIE is impossible to cheat via anything other than profound insider access, since not only must you take a rather demanding test on paper, you must also appear in person before a board of senior engineers who will give you a problem in the form of a complex network to implement, and then you must design and "program" it (we sort of call configuring routers and switches programming, but you're an actual programmer so it's not really the same). You just can't realistically cheat the IE/DE/Ar tests.

I've taken CompTIA tests, Microsoft tests, the CISSP. They've got nothing on the cisco testing process.
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wpegg: Perhaps if they've got their course up to a standard you can't cheat then it's worthwhile, I just don't know how they'd manage that.
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OneFiercePuppy: The test engine. It's designed to ensure that if you're able to fail, you will. The test is divided up into several sections (depending on the test subject, obviously) and each section will ask some number of questions. But if you get one wrong, the test will procedurally change, and ask more about that same subtopic, so if you've gone in and only skimmed the surface of a topic, you're going to end up getting asked a bunch of questions about it. And you can only miss a few questions and still pull a passing grade.

That's for the lower level. It's technically possible to cheat them - CCENT/CCNA is still a simple enough test that you can indeed hire surrogates. CCNP is a difficult test, though. And CCIE is impossible to cheat via anything other than profound insider access, since not only must you take a rather demanding test on paper, you must also appear in person before a board of senior engineers who will give you a problem in the form of a complex network to implement, and then you must design and "program" it (we sort of call configuring routers and switches programming, but you're an actual programmer so it's not really the same). You just can't realistically cheat the IE/DE/Ar tests.

I've taken CompTIA tests, Microsoft tests, the CISSP. They've got nothing on the cisco testing process.
I wonder if that's how they do the NCLEX.
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What the case? I didn't hear about it for years
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ScottPreot: What the case? I didn't hear about it for years
You realize you necro'd a thread from 2018 right?