Seriously now...?
I'll answer that question for you in a separate post, since asked for it...
In the meantime, my browser spell check marks Islamist as a wrong word so for now congrats on being on the same mental level as my spell check. (this is not necessarily an insult, depending on how one looks at it)

It's not being done nearly enough. I'm not seeing any imams or mosque visitors reporting terrorists among their midst to the police or talking them out of the nonsense, I've seen interviews with people who try to de-radicalize endangered young men but that should be the norm, not just happening here and there. On the contrary, many young people get radicalized by their imams instead of being given peaceful spiritual guidance. A community is in ways responsible for its members. By "we", I was talking rhetorically hence the quotation marks, and I obviously meant the Muslim community.

You're most welcome to prove me wrong, in fact I wish I was wrong. On the whole matter. But so far, you're not doing a very good job. If you mistake honesty for condescendence, that's unfortunate. I was under the impression that you're a grownup, surely you can handle it when some stranger says things in a way you don't like.

First off, I'm not concluding that Islam is inherently the root cause. I'm strongly implying that it is a possibility to consider that Islam is the root cause. Or it could be something else. If I already knew the answer, I wouldn't bother to discuss the issue in the first place.
The past informs us about the present, it doesn't excuse it - neither positively nor negatively. It seems you were taught some sanitized version of history that whitewashes the history of Islam. Can I undo years of potential brainwashing onto your mind? I doubt it. You seem comparatively educated and speak very good English, most likely a member of of the Middle class, however there is still a possibility that you were being taught history inaccurately. Here's a possible explanation by your countryman Tarek Fatah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJeIIsGB_B8

I would cut you some slack if it weren't for the internet where you can get all the info for free so there is no excuse.

The more you're posting, the less it looks like that. For one, I found it rather disturbing how you evaded Klumpen's simple questions in the exact same passive aggressive manner that Salafists do whenever they are asked such simple questions. They just can't give a straight answer.
The president of the Central Council of Swiss Muslims is such a Salafi convert clown, he appears on TV as if he represents Muslims in Switzerland - which I strongly assume and truly hope he does not.
If I was a Muslim, I would shirk no effort to make it clear that backwards guys like that are unwelcome Islamists and that no sane person thinks like them. If you're holing up in a defensive "I don't have to justify myself for those guys" position then you're only reinforcing stereotypes, congratulations on that. It's your choice to not answer questions and not position yourself in a favorable way to the "infidels" but keep in mind that you can shape the image, or the image shapes you. This is just how things work.

Well, sorry if I'm not the droids you're looking for. Perhaps if you would take some time to dwell on my points, maybe it's not all nonsense?

Thing is, with a basic ability to read between your lines (though it's more a case of evaluating expressions with unknown variables, fairly basic math) it seems that yes, you do seem to believe Islam has superior value. Even if you're only claiming that it has at least equal value than everything else - which is already a very bold statement without sufficiently backing this up with empirical evidence.

My guess would be that you view yourself too world-weary to not find any ideals about "European" or "humanistic" value base but fairly foolish cum naïve. It is the actual fact of having a symbol to rally around, with hope and sense of unity and morality - when we all know it is as true as it is passing - that might be hard to reconcile. But I trust you to correct me! :-)

So you think "Je suis Charlie" is a defense of European humanistic values, therefore me as a cynic dislike it?

Yeah... you're wrong :) I see "Je suis Charlie" mostly as a defense of satirical/offensive speech. The only thing I dislike about that is I'm sure many participants are hypocrites and will soon be attacking freedom of speech again.

So we don't agree "Je suis Charlie" is all true, and we certainly agree it's passing. Which is not so hard to reconcile... seeing the falseness inside it's easy to understand how and why it shall pass away, despite wishing it weren't so.

Wow, still wasting time with this obvious terrorism supporter even after he showed his true colours?
I gave him the benefit of the doubt long enough to show if he is either just brainwashed and confused but meaning well or one of the islamist cowards with all their dishonesty and support of sneak attacks. There's no honesty/honour to be found in those.

Well, as an attempt at a dark joke, there's something to be said in favor of sneaky surprise attacks, especially in comparison to what was going on 100years ago in our European neighborhood... the pinnacle of head on bravery indeed, with the barbed wire and machine guns just waiting for you over the edge. Considering the sheer size of it is astonishing.

Yeah... European humanism indeed... though that's rather a bellow the belt punch at Tstael, which she does not deserve.

I do quite suck at putting my thoughts in words, and I'm not good at argueing, but I'll give it a whirl.

Here in Belgium we have the following problem:

After the second world war, we started rebuilding our ravaged country, and looking for new industries and resources to exploit. Since there were coal deposits here in Limburg (Maasmechelen, a mining town of old, for example lies only about half an hour's steady drive from my home), we decided to start mining them, because we needed all available boosts to our economy.

Unfortunately, there weren't enough miners, all belgian men were busy rebuilding, working for other industries etc... . We then decided to invite labourers and miners from other countries to come live in belgium and work here (which was a nice prospect for a lot of people in poorer/devastated countries). First came quite a few Italians, and then a sizeable group of Turkish an morrocan people. They got their homes here, in the so called mining Citees, and started working.

Now, with the mines closed years ago, a lot of muslim families have become considerably poorer, as they sustained themselves from working in the mines.

A big problem, is the attitude the Belgians have towards these people; They are treated as second rate citizens in many cases, a lot of idiots think it is a bad thing muslims are allowed to have their own prayer houses in Belgium, and you would laugh your ass of at the ludicrous idiocy that has been said arround the "banning of burka's" debate.

Currently, a lot of young muslims, stemming from the poor families, are treated as junk and are neatly forced into low-level education, like technical schools for automobile maintenance, plumbers etc... . I think you can see that vicious circle popping up.

There are also other muslim immigrants who do quite well. Unfortunately, they are also scoffed at by lots of Belgians, and I shall offer a striking example.

My mother got to know a muslim family through her work. They do their prayers each day, the wife goes about bareheaded, and they wouldn't harm a fly. They studied in Turkey, and came here in the tracks of family members who were already living here. They both were Animal doctors (one for cattle, the others for smaller animals, like pets)
-sorry, I don't know what "an animal doctor" is in english- Upon arriving here, they were blunty refused all opportunities to do the work they studied for. Why would anyone take a muslim doctor when they could take a Belgian one, after all? And god knows how they cure animals in Turkey, so who would want to pass their pet under the knife of a turkish doctor?!

At the same time, they were also blunty refused all options for studying a few extra years here in a Belgian university, so that they could 'catch up' with animal medicine here in europe. They were basicly told that their diplomes were useless, and if they wanted to become animal doctors here in Belgium, they would have to study all over again (which they, of course, didn't have the money for.)

The husband works in a computer repair shop, the wife repairs furniture.
people who studied to become animal doctors for fucks sake!!!

All about the country, the "Belgians" are of the following opinions:
-Muslims are lazy parasites who refuse to work
-True belgians should be favoured when new jobs open up
-Muslims must alter their habits if they want to live here with us, they should assimilate with western culture
-All muslims are assholes who want to take over the western world, by coming here, not altering their ways and assimilating US

Needless to say, after decenia of such bullying and harrasment, the majority of the muslim population collapsed upon itself and formed a tight group, which fearfully clinged on to their habits of old, because it was all we left them, and the only reassurance they have in the pitiful existence we leave them.

In such a scoffed at, and above all, !<frustrated>! mob of people, beset on all sides by OUR intolerance of their being different in their ways, it is all to easy for some cunt to instill the young people ,with no hope of a good future, with lies of paradise if they start blowing people up, and shooting mobs of others.

I am basicly trying to point out, that here in Europe, we bully these people INTO clinging on to their traditions. If we just let them go to their mosques, if we let them dress as they want (besides, it's not as if anyone has a problem with the jews dressing up like clowns, dogmatizing their children and having tora schools in antwerp), while we mind our business, go to our churches, dress up as we like, etc...,
and just, you know LET EACH OTHER BE, a lot of problems would be solved quite instantly.

If you create a lot of frustration and helpless anger in a mob, by continuously favouring others and looking down on them like filthy bugs, then you really shouldn't be surprised if some religious leader comes by, and utilizes that anger to turn otherwise perfectly humane, docile people into frenzied fanatics with false promises and lies. And that is where, indeed, religion, Islam, plays a very, very dirty role as a tool for mass manipulation so that these cunts can rig the poor and unsuspecting before their chariots.

It's not just their religion, their habits on themselves. We, the western world, are also a big cog in the machinations that are driving Islam into its frenzied state, by scoffing at its people, and continuously looking down on them. that creates anger, naturally, and that is what is being exploited by animals like IS and their foul beastmasters.

Right now, here in Belgium, there are special forces walking arround the streets of the major cities. The ruling biggest political right-wing party couldn't be better served by the recent wave of terrorist attacks, and they are happily instilling fear of the big bad islam into the people, any excuse for getting more power and control is welcome, and the current events are being served to them like a delicious dish on a silver platter. And it's not as if THAT kind of policy is going to solve our problem, now is it? -_-

Hell, I might be a communist and a fundamental antitheist myself, but as long as people let each other be and go on about their own business without harming each other with their differences, I can put up with their believing psychotic fabbles and devious lies. That goes as much for christians, jew, buddhists, hindus as it does for muselmen. Besides, my maddly christian neighbour stuffs my post bin with propaganda from his local bibble community, he throws me foul looks when I wash my parent's car on sundays and he forces his children to sing gospels with him every other day. I have never been bothered in such a way by any moslim In my neighbourhood, they just keep to themselves all the time

I am in no way trying to justify muslim terrorism or anything, I am just offering the viewpoint that we, in the west, might ourselves very well be a big part of the problem, and can be a big part of the solution with a bit of mutual respect and understanding and a good portion of well thought through rationale.

edit: that is, specifically for islamitic fundamentalism in countries were muslims are a minority.

There you go - this does not bother me, because I feel secure in my "naïveté" - you surely must admit that most oppressed persons - in societies without civil liberties - could not do as citizens in France and elsewhere?

This somehow is a European thing, because we are free to express our indignation; and Press Liberty matters more to us thsn most others.

Let me just state that a dear person in the US has been most delighted for me to procure this title - after rather a happy "friend of a friend of a consequential press stand owner"

She still wants me to get it to her unfolded - slightly unreasonable, maybe, but I get her totally!

I give u +1 because I do suspect that you vocalize seldom, or alternatively you are super piss-ass - but I also do love Brussels to distraction!

But let me also pose you the following point for consideration: Leopold II was a man that should have been struck down by heavenly fire, before he got around to despoiling Congo and instructing his minions to cut off hands; because it would nicely assure slow death by starvation.

Belgium has surely benefited from past colonial activities; and EU having the de facto HQ in Brussels.

Why do you see my saying you're wrong as applying to the first sentence (about humanism) rather than the second (about my dislike)?

You're wrong about my dislike TStael... as the following sentences went on to state.

first, about colonialism...

Indeed, Belgium does have a history of attrocities in it's past colonies, and that affair has gotten a tail reaching into these very times.

The problem with that history, is that here in Belgium it has been wiped from history (same goes for other countries). Out of 6 years of history in secundary school, the last two years being fully dedicated to stuff that happened after the french revolution, we must have seen 1, maybe two lessons about Belgian and Dutch colonialism? As far as those history courses went, all the problems in Africa magicaly popped into existence somewhere after world war II.

That's just africa, about the Spanish exterminating the Inca's and Aztecs we only read how the heroic Don...(forgot his name) reached and submitted the Incan capital with a few cannons, horses and a regiment of men. -_-

Not a word had been spoken about, indeed, chopping hands of africans, brutal slavery, or handing over carpets to indians in exchange for pearls as welcome gift; So that when all the indians died of poxes and diseases a week later they could have ALL of their stuff; moving on to the next village, rinse and repeat, and all those distastefull acts of bestial greed.

The fact that all my classmates were braindead COD fanboys and Youpie/flair/whatever readers with no interest in history whatsoever ("uhm...history is irrelevant, all those people are dead anyway") did not help either. In fact they don't care about Africa at all. "Yes, we donate to good causes once in a while". I went to a state school, and therefore had the option of choosing between religious courses or humanism (it was called "niet-confessionele zedenleer"). I obviously went for humanism, duh. At some point the subject of Africa came up. The teacher said that better education was a real must for improving the life standard in such countries (true that), even if it only was a stepping stone; The majority of the class dissagreed, reasoning that "they don't know better over there anyway, let's just leave it at that and send them food and condoms, beuh". The same person who said that gave me angry looks and a scoff when I said I was a socialist (communist actually, kind of by then), "why the fuck would you vote for immigrant rights" she said... I kinda felt like either crying a river or tearing out one of her arms and beating her to death with it...stupid goat...

You see, this is my experience with the historical awareness and reasoning capabilities of the fellow members of my generation (born 1996). As you might tell, and sorry for erring a bit from the point of colonialism, bringing up young people like this really won't solve anything. I don't know wether it's an expression in English as well, but in Dutch that stuff is reffered to as "struisvogelpolitiek" - "ostrich policy". Just bury your head deep enough in the soil and your problems will all go away... .It seems to work, because that stuff is happening (/has happened) far from your bed, and you might keep yourself ignorant of it, but that doesn't solve anything because actually the problems are still out there.

If you don't know jack shit about stuff like colonialism an what happened in the past, then how can you bring the current global situation into a proper, focussed perspective?

Last year miss Belgium (really...Belgium, really...Ambiorix is spinning in his grave like a madman) said on TV the first world war took place from 1940-1945.

Youths only know the second world war from bad video games, that only ever show supreme american courage and heroism, and not much else. I always take Dresden as example of why they are idiots (bit generic, but anyhow...) ([url=https://www.google.be/search?q=bombardment+of+dresden&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=b2fPVJ6xFsOvaZreAQ)-pick]https://www.google.be/search?q=bombardment+of+dresden&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=b2fPVJ6xFsOvaZreAQ)-pick[/url] the one you think is most accurate/relevant

I know a bit about colonial history (the big lines), because my father has like 9 books of it lying arround, not only about Belgian and Dutch colonies, but also a lot of stuff on the pre-world war I German ones (not a paradise either, those).

I feel like our entire society is geared towards churning out sheep like my past classmates. Easy to control, not much smarts to begin with, shove all the bad specks of western history under the doormath, and make them ignorant content people who will go on too enrich the economy with their jobs, their vacations, the taxes we'll make them pay. And if you can harness them through subtle manipulation to do the stuff you want them to do, yipee...you get the point I guess...

Okay, this might be partially my revolutionary Communist discontent with the workings of capitalism playing up, but we ARE creating mobs of sheep whichever way you turn it. Our society is simply geared towards doing such, and maintaining strict control through the masses's stupidity, and if you make a lot of money doing so, congrats, you're suddenly worth more than other human beings who have less stuff. >:o

And Islam, and other cases of fundamentalism are mainly born out of high up people (religious leaders, politicians...) using the masses for their own gain ("what do all men with power want?...more power"-sorry bout that reference). For that to happen, they need, using a term from times when it was already exactly the same, panem et circenses. You need to keep them dumb, and you need to keep them contented. In our case here in the west capitalism and commerce keeps the people happy (and those who slip into poverty are never listened to, because everyone is too busy trying to save their own backside in the harsh jungle of economics), and money (and therefore power) keeps the high and mighty rulers steadfast in their place. Our educational system is geared towards producing sheep who won't question the status quo in any way, and who can be easily manipulated by the unshiftable upper classes. (as to who rules in a democracy, in case your answer is 'the people", my answer is "the people. are. DUMB.)

In fundamentalist muslim countries (to come back to that point), Religion is the main tool for keeping everyone stupid and secure in the knowledge that their god is watching over them, and they should be content, live their earthly lives as Allah (actually the mullas who made that guv' up to control the mobs) dictates them to. And yes, it is quite usefull to have some poor bastards in such places, because you can fool them into thinking they'll get virgins and a good afterlife if they blow other societies's sheep up.

I could write entire paragraphs about corruption and the good old "oh tempora oh mores", I could ramble on for as long as I live about the teachings of Marx/Jesus (quite alike really) but I shall leave this lump for now, as food for thought...

Have a very lovely day! ;p

Hehe...radicalism in ourselves...I do ramble on a bit indeed.

never knew I had it in me...

Now I need to unstress a bit though, I get passionate while writing...

here, to calm the moods and keep things civil...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E9BllmZUvc

on a side note, about the cartoons and such...

I think freedom of speech is very important, and that human beings have a right to employ their ability to reason creatively, so as to come to their own critical view of the world, of morals (what they percieve to be right or wrong), and they should most certainly be allowed to express their conclusions, and share and debate. That would be my utopia as far as freethinking humanism goes (google translate says "liberal humanism" for "vrijzinnig humanisme" but I can't stand liberals, so we'll go with that).

Now, this is not a perfect world, and there are many conflicting opinions. You just watch my family at a christmass dinner. We went to a resto, and by the time we left the quaint docile people there were staring at us in frightened bewilderment. We had been fiercely debating the following issues between my socialist branch of the family, the politcally right-minded uncles from Antwerp, and my deeply (though enlightened) Catholic grandfather:

-why cutting down government spending was needed
-why they should NOT do so with healthcare, education, public transportation,...
-especially when planning to spend many many millions on buying crappy american F-35's instead
-why doing those kinds of things was typical of a a-holic right-wing government
-why socialists brought the country down in the first place
-why christians are better then muslims (guess from who that one came -_-)
-why companies and rich persons should pay less taxes (I also freaked out at this point)

As you can imagine with such topics and that variety of debaters, (verbal) shit was practicly being flung across the table. It was like a day in parliament .

That is just a small family minding it's own busines on a christmass dinner. Imagine that across a multitude of cultures and religions...

Of course, the big words here are, as far as my opinion on these matter goes: 1 respect, and 2 relativizing

about point 1, my first post here goes into that. It speaks for itself that you have to mutually respect each other's differences if you're going to get along, right? That extends to habits, ideas ideology and other such things.

about point 2: they eat dogs in China, philosophers fucked young boys up the ass in ancient greece as a passtime, we blow our noses repeatedly in the same piece of cloth which we keep stored in our pockets for multiple days, jews cut the foreskin of their children, and the list goes on and on.

For the greeks that was perfectly acceptable and quite normal at the time, and they would probably think of us as filthy buggers for the way we use handkerchiefs.

The Romans thought the Jewish were idiots with all their silly ways, and I agree with them

The jews think I will burn in hell forever for being an anthitheist who thinks their religion (all religions for that matter, don't take particular offense) should be flushed down the drain, were shit does after all belong.

Somehow, leaving ancient greece and fucking young boys aside, we've got to learn to live with our differences.
Relativizing is a really big part of that, as you have to put these kinds of things into perspective.

And, obviously, that process also involves making fun out of each other, bluntly put.

!!!Humour, has a really good relativizing effect.!!!

-Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans. It is lovely to be silly at the right moment. (Horace)

Just to give a little example, when my neighbour is singing his bloody gospels, I, on my side of the wall always put up my Red Army Choir jubileum album to counter the noise. Apparently the neighbour was able to hear it at some point, and we've been exchanging dumb jokes about communism and christianity ever since.

In soviet Russia, Jesus prays for YOU...

Jesus WAS a communist you fool, didn't you read his omnibus?...(the bible, of course)

and so on...

And since we're obviously a long way from dissolving into a single blob as far as cultures go (perhaps, even, luckily in a sense) we got to make fun of each other a bit.

Once again perfect world situation.

Some people really don't like being made fun of. Those people are also often the ones who can't debate in a senseful manner, and who, contrary to my sense of what is right and wrong, would very much like to tear another human being to shreds in cruel ways if they don't share their viewpoints.

And, as far as my viewpoint goes, It's not the culture itself that produces such derps, it's specific circumstances (poverty, repression etc...), and an ill will from someone with too much power on his hands.

To give an example:the crusades. At some point the pope wanted to reinforce his position as religious leader, so he did a few things: he let the inquisition burn a lot of women, because women and religion don't go well together (they're a bit too sober on average), and he said that all kings and feudal lords should go rape and pillage their way through to Jerusalem, or be excommunicated. There they went, quite a few times in a row, and when they couldn't make it far enough, they just pillaged some other christians who had a slightly different interpretation of christianity.

In medieval Europe, things weren't going so well at the time...so a lot of people saw the crusades as a chance to, at least temporarily, escape their miserable lives. Power plays between the Feudal lords aside, those could get new lands and reinforce their position in the world (because Islam was a really big threat to christianity at the time). And the pope had all the power, and he would get even more power by this cunning plan, so he was quite happy.

Back to now and the Jihad. Things aren't going well in the middle east. Lots of women are being killed for being women (It kind of boils down to that). There is much poverty, they used to have oil to sell for a profit, but the 'muricans went and took it so they could have the profits, a lot of bad people are in charge, and a lot of people are poor and not very happy...at all

In such bad times, religion has its heydays, due to perverse mechanisms which you could better of with reading about in a book by a star such as Richard Dawkins, who can explain it much better. Not only that, but due to the fact that the people who are in charge of the religion have too much power, religious people are dumb sheep, and the people in charge have dirty ambitious agendas for getting more power, the situation quickly escalates.

For those religious leaders, it is all to simple to goad and brainwash people into fanaticism. What else do they have to believe in? The promises of dying a martyr for Islam and getting loads of virgins and a better life also helps, of course (Sure, If someone told me that by blowing my christian neighbour up with a gas explosion from the furnace in our house I'd get a shiny space yacht full of horny Quarian women and a Vogon Butler legion the decision is easy enough to make for me too, especially if my house was empty, made of golfplates and if it'd be the only thing I had next to hunger).

It's those leaders, who are the real problem. And yes, they should be mocked and taunted untill they string themselves up.

But it's not very nice either if you insult all normal rational muslims in the process. Of course, it is also a bit childish from those normal muslims that they are insulted by dung aimed at the fanatics, but we have been dispising them for so long they feel instantly threathened as an ethnic group the very moment you flap your gums about CERTAIN muslims being gobshites. Which is, of course, our fault (and also an ancient tribal reflex we can't do anything about either).

I'll leave that last paragraph's statements open as a playfair for the rest of you guys ;)

Bye for now!

oh, and sorry for the battleship sized blobs of text

I get what you are saying and this mess was influenced in a somewhat similar way over here too,
but we had/have as many Asian immigrants from the same era and they never caused such problems en masse, quite the contrary, most people are very happy to have them here and would like to mix with them as much as possible (many of the Asians won't though, because racism is running strong in many of those familys too, especcially lots of Korean and Taiwanese people are not willing to give their children to Germans for coupling/marrying and many obey).
The cultural aspect isn't as unimportant and utilizing those via Islam and it's hateful orders would probably be more complicated.

All of this history aside, the more important point is
how to deal with the mess as it is right now in a fair and practical way.

Indeed, but to put in an analogy, you can't mop the floor if the tap is still running...

My point of view on the matter: the problem we are facing has some huge fundamental sources.

If you'd ask me, inequality between people and the discontent it naturally causes is a real iceberg sized monstrosity of an issue (Communist rant mode active).

However, Religion and simply, a lack of understanding for each other's differences really lies at the fundaments of the issue. Religion goes without saying (I think I made myself clear on that point before), as it is merely a tool for harnessing the anger, passion and foremost phobia of mobs of people. That phobia is also a key.

As humans, and being no more than "advanced", evolved apes (although it must be said the layer of civilization is paper thin indeed), we have a natural fear of things unknown to us; especially if what is unknown comes from an alien 'tribe'. It may be a very crude analogy, but I'm sure it's actually correct up to some point.

We are just going to have to get along better I'm afraid, I don't know what else to say anymore. We need to get rid of religion and inequality (economic inequality that is), and then we are just going to have to accept each other for who we are, and what our differences are. That's the only way I see out of this garbage belt.

But that's not going to happen anytime soon. Because, you know, humanity ;p

I've offered all the viewpoints I've kept for myself so far, but I'll hang arround a while in case I can sneak back into the discussion later on...

Enjoy your evening!