Consider how not everyone feels Cyberpunk 2077 is actually an RPG since it lacks meaningful choices and far reaching consequences. I can understand how others feel that the simple act of earning XP is enough to make something an RPG, while others might say it's the gear that makes it an RPG or the quests. After all, why isn't Metal Gear Solid an RPG, you play the role of snake in a game.

So the question comes down to, what does RPG mean to you. Not what wikipedia says or some similar blup; how do you define a Role Playing Game?

In the most basic sense, in an RPG the player controls one or more characters that have statistics that change over the course of the game, usually improving, and those statistics affect what the character(s) can do and the chance of success.

I generally consider RPGs to be games where the success of an action is determined by the character's abilities, not the player's. The player's role, in such games, is relegated to telling each character in the party what to do, and then just watching as said actions are performed.

In particular, some notes:
* Whether the party or main character grows stronger as the game progresses is irrelevant.
* If a game uses collisions for determining if attacks land, it is not an RPG.
* Story and dialog choices do not make a game an RPG; in fact, I see such elements as native the the Visual Novel genre, so games like Final Fantasy 7 are actually VN/RPG hybrids (with some mini-games that violate the RPG-ness of the game). Counter-example: Most SaGa games lack XP, instead using other rules for character growth. Counter-examples: Quest 64, Pokemon series (especially the first generation), I believe Dragon Quest Monsters 1 Counter-examples: Earlier RPGs didn't have quests. Wizardry 1's plot was just an excuse plot, for example.

rocket propelled granade

or role playing game, for which there is no defintion and at its most basic level can go for anything where the player takes on a role

To me the 3 letter label has actually become fairly meaningless by itself without further context (like sub-genre or comparing to another established well-known game). Eg, tell me a game is "ARPG" or "Diablo-like" and I'd know exactly what to expect. Or a game is "more CRPG than than JRPG" and I'd have a fair idea of gameplay. But "RPG" by itself is so over-used it could mean anything from an isometric party turn-based game to another "obvious Ubisoft FPS that's only called an RPG because it has a wafer-thin skill tree attached to appear 'deep'".

Not sure, but Cyberpunk 2077 looks to be more of a open-world Deus Ex, which would be hybrid of FPS and RPG. Which way it leans further towards, who knows - as I ain't played it. And this...could be very subjective.

This also could even fit under "immersive sim", too...like Arkane's titles and Looking Glass' titles too - in which you have tons of skills, stats, levels, abilities...and can finish a mission in tons of different ways, even if the outcome from the quest & story is the same...or not. Again, I'm not sure, as I really don't own CP 2077 yet.

But, to me - RPG's usually involve any of the 2 traits below or a combo of both:
1. Characters can level-up their stats, attributes, abilities, skills, and/or equipment a lot.
2. Decision-making and branching paths...with different results in all kinds of ways. The results cab differ in the actual quest-line's outcome; NPC's, the game-world and/or the locations being changes/removed/killed/acting different/whatever; and/or actual different final endings to the game.

I would like & think that most RPG's to do a mixture of both here, TBH.

Some games that are considered ARPG's like Diablo do #1 to death, but don't much or any #2 at all.
Some games like Alpha Protocol (a mixture of third-person shooter and RPG), feels like they do #2 to death...even if #1 isn't emphasized a ton.
But, often...those both are considered RPG's.
In particular, Diablo and Diablo-likes are considered ARPG's.

RPG is just extremely unfortunate term in context of video games. It made sense for "physical" games because in contrast to typical board or card games in pen and paper rpg's you were actually role playing, hence the name. But in video games, as you mentioned, it makes little sense because in majority of games you play some role. It is cause of a lot of confusion. Years ago cRPG's were mostly about advanced character development or adapting existing pen and paper systems but now you can find a lot people who would say it's more about well developed stories with lots of choices and consequences. Fact that today many genres are blending makes it all even more complex. Years ago games like System Shock 2 were considered rpg but now you have this type of character development in a lot of games (i.e. newer Far Cry's) and no one calls them that. What about dungeon crawlers which are archetype of cRPG but often have really rudimentary plots and no plot choices at all etc. and it doesn't even matter who your characters are?

I hope you're aware that this is an endless discussion that people have had here and elsewhere on the internet countless times, without ever finding a definition that everyone could agree on? You just opened this can of worms anew. ;) Wouldn't that include games like point-and-click adventures and chess? Guybrush Threepwood is safe underwater because he can hold his breath for 10 minutes, while the player most likely can't; but the success of trying to pick something up depends on his ability to reach it. A chess figure can or can't reach a certain field due to its abilities, not the player's. The player just tells Guybrush or the chessfigure in a videogame what to do and then watches as said actions are performed.

I know what you mean, but I don't think your definition is sufficient to exclude these cases. A bit more convincing because it further restricts what dtgreene said, but I think it might still include certain turn-based tactics or strategy games?

In any case, my personal take on the definition is that there is no single trait that can define a game as RPG, it always has to be a combination of several. To the ones already mentioned by Cavalary, I would add for example, as typical but not necessarily essential: inventory management, choices & consequences, roleplaying a character (e.g. through individual character creation, exclusive dialogue choices or different use of skills to solve problems), experience points and option to influence which stats improve on level up etc.

But in the end, since many players still insist that one particular trait among these is the most important, and noone can agree which one that would be, all attempts at defining what RPG actually means remain fruitless.

And does it really matter, if you're having fun? It's only there to help you give an approximate short description when promoting a game or talking about it with others.

Funny thing is, neither of those is a defining aspect of RPGs for me. 1 I see as irrelevant to genre classifications (with the only genre I can think of that would really require this would, oddly enough, be idle clickers), and 2 is more along the lines of what I'd see might align more closely with visual novels (at least more interactive ones) and/or adventure games. So, a character can hold their breath underwater for 10 minutes. When you go underwater, does a timer start at the 10 minute mark and count down, in real time, from there (with the character drowning at the 10 minute mark)? If so, then the player's abilities are relevant, so my definition would not include that case.

Chess is a different case. The abilities of the pieces don't affect the success of an action; rather, they affect whether the action can be performed at all. This sort of mechanic feels more like it belongs in a puzzle game. Maybe chess is a puzzle game? (One other piece of evidence that points toward chess being a puzzle game: Watch any serious game of standard chess between reasonably experienced human players. Notice how long it takes for each player to make a move?) Quest 64 really only has that last point; the option to influence which stats (or, rather, magic elements) improve on level up. (Well, it does have XP, but it's hidden and only affects your element growths; other stats grow through use, albeit in a deterministic manner (unlike, say, SaGa games).) A game does not need to be an RPG to be fun. I'm having a lot of fun with Celeste (with a couple mods, neither of which add RPG elements to the game), for example.

Edit: I should also add another point: A game does not need to be fun to be an RPG. See Ultima 5 NES for an example of this.

Yeah, I tend to feel that turn based games are the only ones that can really capture RPG-combat systems. With modern games having you in the role of a demigod who doesn't play by the same rules as the enemies. Your attacks always hit, you can see enemies in shadows but they cannot see you, and of course the head shot / heal spam. The player has no problem 1 hit killing other enemies but if the player gets one hit killed then it's a shitstorm, of course also enemies that heal spam are bad... but the player can do it?

Of course that's just combat, and I don't see combat as a necessity to have an RPG.

this is the most bs take on rpgs to be honest. it's probably born out of th experience of people who have never played tabletop rpgs, i'm afraid... an rpg is an evolution of a wargame, so if it has stats, skills, classes (which are the actual roles, not the "i want to be an elf who can do EVERYTHING!" shit LARPers love) and similar stuff, then it's an rpg.

Cyberpunk 2077 is not an rpg. It's an action game with numbers that go up sometimes.

It's like the difference between a butcher and a brain surgeon.

"Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story", says GOG.

I haven't played the game and only seen it few minutes on YouTube (mostly glitches), but it doesn't seem to be what I would necessarily call RPG in the traditional sense, at least. Does it even have any levelling system?

But anyway, does it really matter?
You can love or hate Cyberpunk 2077, or just not care, but is someone actually basing that opinion on that game being called RPG or not?

i'd say cyberpunk is a good neo-deus ex clone. and deus ex's rpg elements were almost non existant even in the first game

It's a matter of what makes the game most fun. Having enemies heal can be rather frustrating, as it prolongs battles by an unpredictable amount. On the other hand, for the player healing ensures that a player's mistake or bad luck doesn't haunt them for too long. Often, boss enemies are given a lot of HP to compensate for the player being able to heal.

Some older console RPGs actually did give the final boss a full heal, and that did make such battles less fun. In particular, there's
* Final Fantasy
* Dragon Quest 2 (but not remakes of said game)
* SaGa 1 (though at least the boss only uses it when low on HP; if you count damage, you can prevent this from being used, especially if your damage output is high enough, or you could just do a bit of easy RNG manipulation)
* Bard's Tale NES (which is unfair because you can't cast that particular spell during combat, but enemies can)

In this case, yes, I believe you can drown after 10 minutes, though you will only achieve that if you actually wait for it, there is no real pressure. But point taken. However, this is a very special case I picked. There are other scenes in point-and-click adventures where time doesn't matter. And there are games considered JRPGs where it does - so even if there is the same menu-based combat and other elements as in another game that you would count as JRPG, as soon as there is an element of timing, e.g. for using a special attack, it stops being an RPG to you? That is not very clear from your definition, you should add something like "turn-based" or "no real time elements whatsoever" to it then. Which is fair enough for your own definition. I doubt you'd find many who'd agree to it though. I don't know the game, but I suppose it also has the traits you and Cavalary mentioned, right? Like I said, the ones I listed are typical for many RPGs but not essential. Another one that I forgot is combat (ceratinly not a defining one, but an elements that most if not all RPGs share in some form or other).