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Taleroth: It's not even a matter of saying it's outcompeted.
No, in all likelyhood, it would never get the chance to arise again to a level where competition is a meaningful word to use. The thing is that the building blocks of life are also generally food for life. Thus, once life exists, the environment in which life could spontaeneously arise is destroyed, never to return.

Cars are always good for a few analogies. Imagine a mechanic, trying to build a car from scratch out of spare parts lying around. But he's surrounded by mechanics working on whole cars, and they also want the parts. In order to hold on to a part, it has to be fitted into a complete car. So he can never finish the car, because any part he finds will be snatched up by someone else before his car is complete. And he'll never actually get to race any of the others.
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Taleroth: If it were something simple that occurs every day, then gets outcompeted, it should be feasible to do in a lab. But that has not occurred yet. Heck, we can't even replicate our genesis, let alone others.

So continued skepticism on the matter seems reasonable.
Skepticism is always reasonable, but are you familiar with the Miller-Urey experiment?
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Wishbone: Skepticism is always reasonable, but are you familiar with the Miller-Urey experiment?
Heard of it, know enough about the field to claim to be familiar? No.

That link does have information about the experiment I'd not heard before. I vaguely recall hearing that it might have been contaminated, but that doesn't explain the chirality.
Post edited May 17, 2011 by Taleroth
It's not clear to me how they can tell whether the planet is tidally locked if they can only detect it based on its gravitational interactions... any ideas?
Post edited May 17, 2011 by spindown
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nondeplumage: A tidally locked planet supporting life? That'd be a hell of a trick.
Perhaps not so much of a trick as living under one ton per centimeter of pressure, in temperatures exceeding 200 degrees Fahrenheit! Such as the case with Pyrococcus CH1
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Wishbone: I don't think we can do that yet. Any spectrographic information from the planet would be drowned out by its sun at this distance. I think the way it mainly works is that they deduce the existence of planets from the minor perturbations they cause in the sun's orbit. They deduce the mass and the planet's orbit the same way.

Can anyone verify this? Or am I just talking out of my ass here? (I so often are).
Yep. The gravitational drag from any nearby planets is sufficient to cause the sun to "wobble" in it's orbit. The magnitude of this wobble is proportional to the gravitational force exerted upon the sun by the planet, from which the mass of the planet can be obtained.

Because the sun itself is so bright, our telescopes cannot actually see the planets at that range. But we can tell they're there, and approximately where they are by looking at the movement of the sun.
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spindown: It's not clear to me how they can tell whether the planet is tidally locked if they can only detect it based on its gravitational interactions... any ideas?
Look at tidal forces over the cause of the sun's orbit I guess. If the exact same effects reappear in the exact same locations, then the source of those effects has to be "in synch" with the orbit of the sun, pointing towards a tidally locked planet.

Or you might look at force / mass / time / distance relationships. For near-sun objects, the gravitational pull from the sun produces a massive tidal force which elongates the whole planet along the axis of force exertion. This in turn produces a torque on the near-sun side which basically acts to "synchronize" rotation and orbital period because the total angular momentum of the sun-planet system is always conserved.

Or the sun itself may show signs of being in a tidal lock with another object; this however would normally require a fairly large planet.

It's extremely hard to determine though - we used to think Mercury was tidally locked with the sun until we got continuous readings from radar observations.
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Taleroth: Supposedly they can keep a magnetic field on their single rotation.
But how do you keep an atmosphere on only half a planet?
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Taleroth: There's a very big problem with that idea.

Life's ability to live somewhere is not the same as its ability to START somewhere.

All life in those inhospitable places on earth still has common ancestors with life everywhere else on earth. Which means that the life didn't start in those regions. They then evolved to live in that area. We've never found evidence that life started more than once on this planet.

So life's ability to live here is meaningless for other planets. It needs to start. Which those conditions are clearly something different.
Actually, that's not a problem at all. We know what is required for life (as we know it) to form: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, plus a medium that will allow those elements to combine (water) and a spark of energy to initiate the reaction. This has already been replicated in the laboratory and proven to the point where we know if those conditions exist, life forming molecules are inevitable. That doesn't necessarily mean life itself will form, but the conditions and components necessary for life will. The current thinking is that the conditions that exist around those volcanic fumaroles on the ocean's floor are not only exactly like what started life here on Earth, but also that the life found there is actually the most primitive and basic life form still found on Earth. If we look for conditions similar to that on other planets, the odds of finding life, even if it is just simple microbial life, are very good.
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stonebro: Yep, and it's a huge fallacy.
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WhiteElk: Agreed! Where we use water, another could use ammonia.
It's not a fallacy, it's simply pragmatic. Sure, we have theories and ideas on how life could form in other ways, such as silicon instead of carbon based life, or the ammonia you mention, but we have no real examples of life like that. Why bother looking for the theoretical when we know that the conditions here on Earth have already produced life based on facts, not theories?
Post edited May 17, 2011 by cogadh
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cogadh: It seems like every few weeks a group of scientists are announcing the discovery of new exoplanets, but none of them are willing or able to declare them habitable... until now. French scientists studying Gliese 581d, a planet orbiting a red dwarf star about 20 light-years away from us, have declared that the planet exists in what is known as the "Goldilocks zone", a distance from its star that allows the planet to remain warm enough to have liquid water on its surface (not too hot, not too cold, just right). The planet is around 6 or 7 times the Earth's mass and twice its size, so its gravity is higher than Earth's (a little more than twice Earth's gravity), may be tidally locked (one side of the planet always faces its star) and it very likely has a carbon dioxide based atmosphere, so it is not exactly a vacation spot, but could easily support microbial and even complex plant life. With our current technology, it would take nearly 300,000 years to reach the planet, so we won't be visiting it anytime soon, but we can send probes there for future generation to see what's what.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4321/first-habitable-exoplanet-confirmed
This isn't the first time we've confirmed one only to find out later it wasn't after all. Give them a year, if they still think it's habitable by then, it probably will be.

Also: http://xkcd.com/893/ read the alt text.
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GameRager: (Also read the alt text and nodded in agreement......exo-planet colonization will be needed once we reach the population limit or for other reasons soon and as such needs increase we had better also increase our space exploration budget accordingly or suffer the consequences.)
We won't reach a population limit in terms of resources in a very, very, very, very long time. What we will run out of, what we've been short on since the beginning of time, is economy; and therefore spending a shit ton of what economy there is on playing around in space with little to show for it (because unless we manage to make ourselves a small, lightweight sun, it's always only going to be a little to show for it), offworld colonization is an extremely poor solution.

But it makes for awesome science fiction, and I wouldn't change that for anything.
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GameRager: (Also read the alt text and nodded in agreement......exo-planet colonization will be needed once we reach the population limit or for other reasons soon and as such needs increase we had better also increase our space exploration budget accordingly or suffer the consequences.)
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nondeplumage: We won't reach a population limit in terms of resources in a very, very, very, very long time. What we will run out of, what we've been short on since the beginning of time, is economy; and therefore spending a shit ton of what economy there is on playing around in space with little to show for it (because unless we manage to make ourselves a small, lightweight sun, it's always only going to be a little to show for it), offworld colonization is an extremely poor solution.

But it makes for awesome science fiction, and I wouldn't change that for anything.
We spend more money yearly blowing shit up that we already built than we do on space by orders of magnitude. There could be a ton to show for getting into space, but we'll never know, because it's more profitable to blow stuff up that we already built.
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nondeplumage: We won't reach a population limit in terms of resources in a very, very, very, very long time. What we will run out of, what we've been short on since the beginning of time, is economy; and therefore spending a shit ton of what economy there is on playing around in space with little to show for it (because unless we manage to make ourselves a small, lightweight sun, it's always only going to be a little to show for it), offworld colonization is an extremely poor solution.

But it makes for awesome science fiction, and I wouldn't change that for anything.
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GameRager: IMO all the advances accomplished by space exploration and research more than outweigh the money put into it. And imo i'd rather we advanced technology than stifiled it...and yes, I think they should work on more practical sides to the work as well...but then, that'd require NASA be run like a business and not a gov't institution, and also would require private sector funding & oversight to become practical and profitable....etc etc.

Nah, imo other company's space projects will net us more in the long run and NASA had better catch up or be left behind.

Also, overpopulation far off? Not really....with higher populations will come food/water shortages and yes better tech could increase food production and water reclamation...but that would require the gov'ts and businesses of the world actually giving a damn for once.
Problem is except for putting satilletes in orbit for communications, there is really not much profit to be made in space so far, and the costs of exploration are huge. It has to be done on a non profit basis. I agree NASA should be more efficent, but I an not sure that running everything for profit is a guaranetee of efficency.
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GameRager: (Also read the alt text and nodded in agreement......exo-planet colonization will be needed once we reach the population limit or for other reasons soon and as such needs increase we had better also increase our space exploration budget accordingly or suffer the consequences.)
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nondeplumage: We won't reach a population limit in terms of resources in a very, very, very, very long time. What we will run out of, what we've been short on since the beginning of time, is economy; and therefore spending a shit ton of what economy there is on playing around in space with little to show for it (because unless we manage to make ourselves a small, lightweight sun, it's always only going to be a little to show for it), offworld colonization is an extremely poor solution.

But it makes for awesome science fiction, and I wouldn't change that for anything.
I hate to say this, but on the whole I agree with nondeplumage. Space exploration is not very feasable right now or in the near future ie: for as long as we live to care. In time mankind may come up with technology that helps us travel to planets with ease, until then, I think we will continue to come up with other more 'down to earth' technology. We will find a way to grow crops in such amounts that population, no matter how high will not lead to starvation for most. I recall reading an article in Popular Science, I don't remember the whole thing, but, the gist of it was being able to have farms in high rise buildings, that are solar powered, and reuse most everything put into them, and thats with technology that we have now or will soon.

I think I'm like most of us, when I play a space game, man I wish I was out there for real, because it is awesome, to explore, to wonder, to dream (and of course to fire laser beams!). However, much to my sadness, there are just so many problems in the world now that need help fixing, that space exploration and expansion, are not even close to the top of any governments list of to do's. The only thing that may spur a government into doing anything (and I doubt that it would), is the threat of a planet killer astroid coming to wipe us out, or some other planet wide catasrophe, man-made or not. Really though, until the major problems of earth are fixed (big Until I know), I really think going to other planets will only be for those of us who play video games.
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GameRager: IMO all the advances accomplished by space exploration and research more than outweigh the money put into it.
Like what? Satellites and Teflon?

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GameRager: Also, overpopulation far off? Not really....
It would be far off if our governments would actually use the stupidly spent money (such as the budget for space exploration :>) to fight poverty around the globe. Because as we all know, the wealthier a population is the less offspring they tend to produce. But even now the most recent predictions say that in a few centuries the human population will stagnate and stay on an equal level.
didnt know anything about this planet..thanks for the info :D very interesting stuff!