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Heh, you've reminded me of one of the stories I wrote in my better times. It was TES fanfic, just set quite a bit into it's future. I've had everything: soulgem-powered spaceships, shields based on defensive magic, floating cities! And everyone whom I mentioned it to was slowly backing away from me. Granted, my vision was a bit on the extreme side, still: Yeah, doing tolkien fantasy is just the safe way to go.
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PetrusOctavianus: Magic in Tolkien's world works within the imaginary world because it's very rare, and because it takes a good deal of effort just to cast a measly fireball.
Elves, dwarves and orcs in RPGs are definitely heavily based on Tolkien, but magic is definitely not.
That's true. While there are many things in the world that could be described as magical (the sun and moon, the Rings of Power, Sting) there have only been... I think... 7 people in the entire history of existence itself who could "cast magic spells" and those wizards mostly kept their spells to themselves. While magical objects were somewhat scarce they tended to have a profound effect on societies where they were found or could be produced.
Because when you try to assign quantifiable properties, create a system of physics around its use, and try to put it to tangible uses etc. people immediately start bitching about it technobabble.

Hm. Now that I think about it a bit, the proliferation of magic and its effect on the world and the war between the four nations is the most significant part of the plot in Growlanser 4.
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PetrusOctavianus: Magic in Tolkien's world works within the imaginary world because it's very rare, and because it takes a good deal of effort just to cast a measly fireball.
Elves, dwarves and orcs in RPGs are definitely heavily based on Tolkien, but magic is definitely not.
I'm using his name to describe the overall medieval fantasy wank genre. The whole thing is incredibly uninspired to the point that standard post-apocalypse stuff like Fallout and Wasteland feels OMG SO FRESH by comparison.

The whole fucking RPG genre needs a shakeup.
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PetrusOctavianus: Magic in Tolkien's world works within the imaginary world because it's very rare, and because it takes a good deal of effort just to cast a measly fireball.
Elves, dwarves and orcs in RPGs are definitely heavily based on Tolkien, but magic is definitely not.
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StingingVelvet: I'm using his name to describe the overall medieval fantasy wank genre. The whole thing is incredibly uninspired to the point that standard post-apocalypse stuff like Fallout and Wasteland feels OMG SO FRESH by comparison.

The whole fucking RPG genre needs a shakeup.
I agree with yah there. I'm an RPG fan, but I'm tired of settings taking place in generic Asian/Medieval land. Why not have the setting take place in Mayan society or an Ancient Hawaii? I mean mix it up a little there is a lot more to the world, why does the setting always have to be so homogeneous.

That bothers me a little more then magic, since I'm more in the school of thought that it takes years of dedicated study in order to master magic. Just like how most people use technology, but very few have the guts to actually have the guts or want to upgrade their computer. If its good enough for what they need, why bother going farther. But I see Flick's point.
Post edited September 08, 2012 by Thunderstone
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Thunderstone: I agree with yah there. I'm an RPG fan, but I'm tired of settings taking place in generic Asian/Medieval land. Why not have the setting take place in Mayan society or an Ancient Hawaii? I mean mix it up a little there is a lot more to the world, why does the setting always have to be so homogeneous.
Sales. They think to get big USA and Western Europe sales they have to stick to the same themes we have seen as successful in those markets for 30 years. They might even be right, if you peruse dedicated RPG forums like RPG Watch or RPG Codex you see a ton of people comment about not liking anything outside of traditional fantasy.

I'm not sure whose fault it is, I just know it drives me crazy. If I was a billionaire and started my own development company I would make the most unique and arguably insane RPG environments.
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StingingVelvet: 'snip
Sales. They think to get big USA and Western Europe sales they have to stick to the same themes we have seen as successful in those markets for 30 years. They might even be right, if you peruse dedicated RPG forums like RPG Watch or RPG Codex you see a ton of people comment about not liking anything outside of traditional fantasy.

I'm not sure whose fault it is, I just know it drives me crazy. If I was a billionaire and started my own development company I would make the most unique and arguably insane RPG environments.
I understand that, but its not going to stop me from complaining. Maybe someday someone will listen and decide to make something different. I can dream, and I am aware that I'm not exactly the mainstream consumer.
Post edited September 08, 2012 by Thunderstone
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StingingVelvet: if you peruse dedicated RPG forums like RPG Watch or RPG Codex you see a ton of people comment about not liking anything outside of traditional fantasy.
On the Codex you see more people complaining about generic fantasy settings, and the most revered games are those with original settings, like Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape.

But I agree that generic fantasy settings are really getting old. I wish more games would use (pseudo) historical settings like Darklands did. Expiditions: Conquistador - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2128128298/expeditions-conquistador - looks very promising.
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PetrusOctavianus: But I agree that generic fantasy settings are really getting old. I wish more games would use (pseudo) historical settings like Darklands did. Expiditions: Conquistador - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2128128298/expeditions-conquistador - looks very promising.
Czech gaming studio Warhorse is working on an RPG set in historical locations and using the CryEngine.
http://warhorsestudios.cz/index.php?page=blog&category=news&lang=en
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Flick: This has been a topic I have thought about for a while but have rarely seen disused. I understand that its mostly taste and what people want out of their world but still...

Why does magic in a lot of games rarely have an effect on the world as a whole?

What I mean by this is in worlds that have common knowledge in magics without any serious restrictions on magic, like in Dragon age where people are fearful of mages and magic in general, does it seem to have such little impact in peoples lives? Sure maybe you get a healer in a town using magic but usually thats it. You never see magic being used to help people grow crops in harsh conditions? Using summoned creatures to help build towns? Armies or kings using people who can instantly telaport to deliver vital information or supplies to people. Maybe I just like the little touches in game worlds but I feel that it sort of limits the world when only a handful of people know how to do anything magical and all of them sit in towers and study or adventure.

Is it just to make mages and more importantly magic unique and special in their world? Sadly I do think in a lot of games at least thats a good part of it. Not everybody should know spells but in a world where technology mostly is staled it seems that magic would step in more. I mean most worlds have enchanted items available to most people so why are spells so limited to the public? Again this all in a world where magic is not really limited.

So am I the only one who thinks about this or do others feel the same way? Would this make the game world more interesting or not really matter to you? Would it make magic just another tool and lose its charm? Please discuss!
Do fire arms, biological weapons, and chemical weapons have a big impact on your daily life? How many days in a week, would you say, that you spend time thinking about these things?

People accept the "normal", it's not unreasonable for people to ignore stuff that doesn't touch them in a very bad way, daily. In universes like Warhammer 40k and Dragon Age, where the magic comes with a steep price, people worry about it and there are institutionalized structures to protect against it. The brutality of Warhammer 40k Empire is basically to protect the citizens from The Warp. In DA it's from the nastier elements of The Fade (not sure The Warp has anything but nasty elements to it).

I think most fantasy worlds are convincingly constructed.
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Thunderstone: That bothers me a little more then magic, since I'm more in the school of thought that it takes years of dedicated study in order to master magic. Just like how most people use technology, but very few have the guts to actually have the guts or want to upgrade their computer. If its good enough for what they need, why bother going farther. But I see Flick's point.
In this case, everyone would be able to use a Wand of Fireballs, people with a modicum of knowledge (think 2 year college degree) could cast their own Fireball, and anyone putting 4+ years of study could create or cast very powerful spells based on natural talent and time spent studying (as well as make said Wand of Fireballs).

That would basically make anyone who put in half an effort a passable hedge wizard:)
Post edited September 08, 2012 by orcishgamer
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orcishgamer: That would basically make anyone who put in half an effort a passable hedge wizard:)
Unless they wear metal armor, like a tinfoil hat.
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orcishgamer: That would basically make anyone who put in half an effort a passable hedge wizard:)
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grviper: Unless they wear metal armor, like a tinfoil hat.
That would make them a pretty good lightning rod:)
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orcishgamer: 'snip
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Thunderstone: That bothers me a little more then magic, since I'm more in the school of thought that it takes years of dedicated study in order to master magic. Just like how most people use technology, but very few have the guts to actually have the guts or want to upgrade their computer. If its good enough for what they need, why bother going farther. But I see Flick's point.
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orcishgamer: In this case, everyone would be able to use a Wand of Fireballs, people with a modicum of knowledge (think 2 year college degree) could cast their own Fireball, and anyone putting 4+ years of study could create or cast very powerful spells based on natural talent and time spent studying (as well as make said Wand of Fireballs).

That would basically make anyone who put in half an effort a passable hedge wizard:)
True, but how many people do. It is one thing to know how to build a computer, but knowing and understanding how a computer works is something most people don't bother leaning. How many people can appreciate the difference between a higher level programming language and a lower one? Or the difference between java and java script? Heck, how many people would be able to use a text based OS without being scared off by the lack of a GUI.

This is kind of my point, just because people can become competent with something does not mean they will or will go on to master it.
Just for kicks I'd want to see a setting, in which the guy lighting the town's street lights in the evening does it with fire bolts, douses occasional misses with water bombs, sleeps all night to get wind spells, magically blows out the lights at dawn, and in the afternoon goes for a nap again to get ready for the evening routine. And he's the only one allowed fire magic within city limits.

Didn't one of the Spellcasting games start with animating ingredients for cooking, to spare the trouble of manual labor?
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Thunderstone: Heck, how many people would be able to use a text based OS without being scared off by the lack of a GUI.
Heck, how many people know that KB shortcuts+mouse navigation in Windows GUI is way faster than pure mousing.
Post edited September 08, 2012 by grviper
I do not really like the technology connection for magic. Maybe Arcanum has ruined magic for me but I always felt its more faith based then logical. Technology is based on rules that cant really be broken without major technology involved but magic is the opposite. Anytime you cast a spell you break all the normal rules of your universe that most people follow. To me it would make more sense to say magic was faith based. You have faith that your spell will heal your mortally injured comrade or you will cast that fireball in the heat of battle. But again it all depends on how the creator wants his system to work.

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orcishgamer: Snip
But the combat aspect isnt what I really wanted to discus since its common for people to have weapons. Townsfolk have multiple problems unless they are in massive cities or the capital of their government. They wonder if the have enough food for the winter, if they can ship out their goods to barter with other towns, how to get rid of the large rats infesting their corn mill, what those shifty orcs living in the cave down the road are planning. I doubt their would be many people outside of the rich and nobles but I would have to imagine that some people wanted to get some knowledge. Maybe they pulled some coins together to hire a mage to help them out. It seems most mages want to rule the world, adventure, or most likely just study more. It would be nice to see a few of them get greedy and start selling their services to people outside of battle.