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whiskeytango: They dont teach nuclear force in high school science.
They did in mine. I mean, they didn't make us experts on the subject, but there was a course a big portion of which was centered around that stuff.

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Demut: no offense to any sheeps present
The plural form of sheep is sheep. It has more impact as a taunt when you write it properly :p

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Demut: Why is light associated with good and dark with bad? Why are gods living above us and demons etc. below us in most mythologies?
There is also the possibility that the mythologies are all just mutated forms of an older mythology. Light is also far less scary than dark, and in the best of cases it's all warm and pleasant like free love from the sky, while darkness rarely is.

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crazy_dave: The latter part is not actually true. That is in fact a strawman. The truth is most if not all atheists simply do not believe God does not exist. Not having a belief is not itself a belief. It is by tautology the absence of a belief. There are many things that I as an atheist believe in and that is not one of them.
Merriam-Webster's definition of atheist.
I do believe atheist is a word that many people have their own definition for, because it's such a cool word and you wouldn't want to be a nonbeliever, which is a boring word.

Don't mind me, I'm just arguing out of principle.
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crazy_dave: Is the peer review process perfect? Hell no.
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Demut: I think that was the whole point.
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "The peer review process is the worst system of publishing papers except for all the others that have been tried." You know like publishing without one. :)

In fact the peer review process for the most part alleviates though cannot eliminate the issues overread brings up. Human process are still human. Error can never be totally eliminated.
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Adzeth: The plural form of sheep is sheep. It has more impact as a taunt when you write it properly :p
This wasn’t a taunt. I could say that this would have never happened on my own PC since I’ve got a spell-check addon there but meh ...

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Adzeth: There is also the possibility that the mythologies are all just mutated forms of an older mythology.
They are! But by what is the oldest mythology inspired?

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Adzeth: Light is also far less scary than dark, and in the best of cases it's all warm and pleasant like free love from the sky, while darkness rarely is.
Exactly. My point was to show that the very structure of the human mind is and always has been heavily influenced by our environment.
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choconutjoe: 1. Humans have an intuitive, tacit understanding of advanced physics which manifests itself in art and mythology. Hence, art and mythology end up 'looking a bit like' various scientific theories.
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Demut: It goes in that direction. He states that he doesn’t know the exact reasons for some of the analogies (they are there nevertheless) but look at it this way: Why is light associated with good and dark with bad? Why are gods living above us and demons etc. below us in most mythologies? I don’t think that this is something that had to be selected by evolution but something that influenced us passively. We are talking about our minds here after all and science isn’t that far (yet) in terms of its evolutionary genesis.
Perhaps you have to keep the following in mind as well: Since e=mc² there is no fundamental difference between matter and energy and if you take a look at the EPR experiment you can come to the conclusion that everything is one. So since we are part of the universe and subjects to its laws there might be a seemingly noncausal relation (synchronicity) that we do not understand.
Ok. I think I see where he's coming from. I sort of agree, although I think a lot of these kind of things have more mundane answers. The light=good, dark=bad metaphor probably has more to do with the fact that you can't see where you're going in the dark and you can't see predators. Such a trait could easily be selected for evolutionarily (had humans been nocturnal we might have the opposite association).

The up=good/more, down=bad/less metaphor is certainly pervasive, but I'm not convinced that citing the vague confusingness of the universe and e=mc2 offers a better explanation than the simple, mundane interactions of everyday life (e.g. falling over and dropping things is generally bad).

Certainly, these kinds of metaphors are ultimately related to physics, as is everything. But nothing you've offered so far really seems to support drawing direct analogies between advanced physics and the intuitive/medieval worldview. They still seem like vague coincidences at best.
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crazy_dave: The latter part is not actually true. That is in fact a strawman. The truth is most if not all atheists simply do not believe God does not exist. Not having a belief is not itself a belief. It is by tautology the absence of a belief. There are many things that I as an atheist believe in and that is not one of them.
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Adzeth: Merriam-Webster's definition of atheist.
I do believe atheist is a word that many people have their own definition for, because it's such a cool word and you wouldn't want to be a nonbeliever, which is a boring word.

Don't mind me, I'm just arguing out of principle.
With all do respect to the vaunted Merriam-Webster dictionary that is only one definition and it is a definition. It is also not the one that most atheists particularly of the Humanist variety which is what people mean when they say atheist, ascribe to.

More fundamentally atheist is the negation of theist - someone who believe God does exist. There are two ways to negate that sentence. 1. Someone who believes God does not exist. 2. Someone who does not believe God does exist. Since atheist is the negation, semantically they are equally valid, however they have two completely different meanings. The former is what atheists are often defined as, the latter actually fits the people who self-report as atheists far better.

There are in fact two possible definitions. Both exist, 1) is the strawman used against 2). Hence again why many atheists label themselves as something else. Far from being cool, they feel it does not aptly describe their view of the world. Far from being cool, it is too vague and inelegant.
Post edited May 23, 2011 by crazy_dave
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choconutjoe: Even so, the hypotheses still have to be tested, at which point a person's bias is irrelevant (if tested correctly, I mean). Whatever your worldview, 2 and 2 will never make 5.
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overread: You've yet to discover statistics and politics ;)

Remember different statistical models will give a very big difference to the "meaning" and interpretation of data; and these models are in a constant state of flux as to which are "popular" and which are "unpopular"

In addition science is done by people, and as such is flawed in that scientific study also has politics. Both the politics of the countries supporting/funding the science; but also the politics within science itself. Popularity of one over another as well as the position (eg a Doctor over an intern student) can very well result in some theories (for all their actual fact and content) never seeing the light of day. In addition you have dogma and personal pride. People hate being shown that they were wrong, and when this also affects your pension and job it gives you even more reason to find small flaws or outright decry another scientists theory - again the actual facts are irrelevant.
Of course this only goes so far, since otherwise science might never move forward; but it can slow things down and, in the worst of cases, also destroy valid data and theories (that can often remain in such a state for many generations until revised again).
All that means is that scientists can sometimes be wrong. It doesn't mean that there can be more than one right answer.
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choconutjoe: All that means is that scientists can sometimes be wrong. It doesn't mean that there can be more than one right answer.
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GameRager: If the paralell universe theory is true, and physics works differently in some paralell universes, then technically there can be more than one answer to some things.
Never mind parallel, on to the multiverse!
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choconutjoe: All that means is that scientists can sometimes be wrong. It doesn't mean that there can be more than one right answer.
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GameRager: If the paralell universe theory is true, and physics works differently in some paralell universes, then technically there can be more than one answer to some things.
That's missing the point. If the parallel universe theory is true, then that's an example of a a right answer. The question is: "Does the truth of the parallel universe theory depend on a person's art or mythology?"

If your answer is yes, then I don't know what you're talking about.
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GameRager: If the paralell universe theory is true, and physics works differently in some paralell universes, then technically there can be more than one answer to some things.
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choconutjoe: That's missing the point. If the parallel universe theory is true, then that's an example of a a right answer. The question is: "Does the truth of the parallel universe theory depend on a person's art or mythology?"

If your answer is yes, then I don't know what you're talking about.
He was just making a joke/play on the theme there is only one answer.
Post edited May 23, 2011 by crazy_dave
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crazy_dave: Never mind parallel, on to the multiverse!
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GameRager: Pappa always said, if you want something thrown into the sun right you gotta do it yourself.
:) What's that from it's familiar ... it's not a Futurama but it sounds like a Futurama.
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crazy_dave: He was just making a joke.
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GameRager: I was answering you only. I didn't read the thread yet.
Ok. My bad.
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Demut: And see, with one simple thing you made me ignore you. No, just kidding, you get a second chance :> Obviously I didn’t know this either before reading this book. It’s bleeding edge physics after all. According to the most current theories gravity was the first force to emerge at a temperature of 10^32 K and 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang. The strong force came after that and finally the weak and electromagnetic force emerged last.
I'm sorry but that is not bleeding edge physics. It's coming from the grand unification epoch which was stipulated sometime around 2001 (ages ago in science).

It also starts from an idea that all forces were equal at the start of the big bang and that only during the Planck epoch did gravity disassemble itself from the electronuclear force.

In short, it's pure speculation and to argue for it as scientific fact is silly.
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crazy_dave: :) What's that from it's familiar ... it's not a Futurama but it sounds like a Futurama.
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GameRager: It is a futurama, Hermes Conrad says it in the episode with all the boxes that contain parallel universes.
Yes! Now I remember - great episode.
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AndrewC: In short, it's pure speculation and to argue for it as scientific fact is silly.
You are missing the point. Again. That is not his intention. For more, see below.

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choconutjoe: They still seem like vague coincidences at best.
Go on and ask me about them then. You’ve only heard two or so up until now, haven’t you? Their quantity as well as their quality makes them all the more baffling.

Here is something interesting regarding the whole book. Something the author explains in the epilogue with Egon Friedell’s words:
“Only the dilettante-also amateur or lover-has a truly human relation to his objects, only in case of the dilettante human and profession are congruent; and therefore the whole human influences his occupation and saturates it with his entire being, while vice versa something dilettantish (in a bad sense) clings to everything that is done professionally: some onesidedness, confinedness, subjectivity, a too narrow perspective... The courage to talk about coherences which one does not entirely know, to report on facts which one cannot observe exactly, describing processes about which you cannot know anything sure, in short: Saying things of which can be proven at best that they are false, this courage is the requirement for all productivity, especially for every philosophical or artistic one or even only with art or philosophy distantly related one.” (this is mostly my own crappy translation though here seems to be a similar find on Google which can’t be accessed)
So keep in mind, he is not trying to prove anything - I think he even mentioned somewhere that such an approach would be doomed to fail - but to show us a (in lack of a better translation) “look”. A different perspective. I had a reason for using a question in the title :>
Post edited May 23, 2011 by Demut
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Demut: They are! But by what is the oldest mythology inspired?

My point was to show that the very structure of the human mind is and always has been heavily influenced by our environment.
Regarding the oldest mythology, I haven't the foggiest. Maybe inspired by dreams? It'd make sense with all the ox headed people in caves and flying till you suddenly catch fire.

I think it's quite obvious that the environment influences human minds. If it didn't, it would mean that there is either some sort of a database inside people that'd define how their mind turns out regardless of their environment (which probably isn't the case because some stuff can really scar the mind), or that the influences come from somewhere beyond our environment (would be beyond my understanding and pretty hard to check). That is to say that the influences would have to come from the complement of the environment. Maybe from ghosts, from another dimension. That'd be kinda cool, in a twisted way.

As I understood it, what you/the book are actually trying to say is that the database inside people has insightful data about the environment by default, rather than that the mind is influenced by the environment. Though I guess the first one would imply that the second one takes place as well. Meh.

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crazy_dave: ...
I'm one of those guys who prefer their dictionary definitions, which leads to all kinds of stupid situations where no one understands anyone. About the negation (or complement, if you will), I would go as far as to say that the "1. Someone who believes God does not exist "you presented as a valid negation is actually a true subgroup of "2. Someone who does not believe God does exist" and as such, invalid as a complement. The negation would mean "someone who doesn't fit the criteria" or more common folkly "someone else", and if the 1. would be a complement to theist, then there would be people who belong to 2, but not 1, and so belong to the complement of 1 meaning they're theists who do not believe in God. That right there is a real conflict, so 2 is the valid negation of theist.