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Skunk: We agree, more or less, that we like games. Some people like talking about games more than playing them, but I think that still counts to some degree.

The smarter individuals among us also agree that discussing politics and religion are generally bad ideas. I'm not sure we can all agree that such subject matter is also not at all fun. I've never had fun in political or religious debates, anyway. I have my views, you have yours. I don't recall ever being able to influence somebody else's views in the past, so I don't see all that much point in trying. Some people must take some sort of pleasure in it, though, or else they wouldn't waste so much time here doing so!

All I can say is that cigarettes will kill you, weed should be legal, I have a phobia of being around homophobes, the left exists to fight the right, the right exists to fight the left, both sides exist to fight amongst each other, I have no love for religion, there are too many people in the world, most of them are dumb as hell, the ones with all the power have a way of making those morons look sharp, I can't claim to know anything about the opposite sex outside of what my hormones tell me, and we're all a bunch of greasy monkeys that will be forgotten once our mechanical successors wipe us out with a death ray and build a great citadel from our bones.

It is at that point where we, as a people, will be at our most valuable, as human bones will be a satisfyingly crunchy and non-renewable resource. Robots don't steal, of course. Especially not from the great bone citadel. Well, maybe just one won't hurt...
I wanna be a window...or the top part of the throne of bones...mostly a window...
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Damuna: I think it's generally agreed that Islamism is a cultist/religious extremist movement, and quite distinct from Islam as it is practised by most Muslims
That may be how the term is now being used, but according to a dictionary, it just means "the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam". But I guess I'm nitpicking. As Telika noted, it seems to be a linguistic thing rather than anything else.
Post edited September 25, 2012 by MonstaMunch
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Damuna: As a person who would be considered "undesirable" under your definition, I have to strongly disagree with this. Unfortunately, if I were to express my views fully at the moment, I would be speaking from a position of frothing rage, which would likely derail the thread, so let me just say that this is horribly misguided, and that you are falling into the same trap that those who favoured eugenics did in the first place.
Well maybe, maybe not. I am not sure what he means, but I wouldn't consider autism along the lines of things that should be "fixed". But there are true genetic diseases which are simply medical issues - i.e. the type that kills you horribly after XX years of being diagnosed. Huntington's comes to mind. It just kills the person in a manner which is truly horrific. Now we're not actually that close to do doing gene repair in the womb or germ-line nor to mapping out complete genotype to phenotype relations - especially for complex phenotypes like autism. But if we had the ability there are, especially mendelian, genetic diseases which no one should suffer from. There are many, many more however where the ethics become a lot murkier and a lot of bio-ethicists struggle with how to delineate between them. Because it is coming and the scary thing is it will probably be, as you say, also used to weed-out "undesirable" alleles and not just the deadly ones. So a lot of people are concerned with it right now. But Science always moves both slower and faster than you think it's going to, so I wouldn't care to estimate when the ethical debates will be forced into sharp relief as the practical catches up with the hypothetical.
Post edited September 25, 2012 by crazy_dave
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Odonnell435: But, were else can we go then, Any ideas?
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Licurg: No idea, but it's probably not on the internet. Whatever issue you may have is going to either be solved in real life, or not at all. Discussing it on a forum does nothing, except start endless arguments that will give you a heart attack sooner or later.
I don't agree with you on the bolded part. All the changes outlined in the OP would never have come around if they weren't adopted by enough people. And most people don't addopt anything unless they've actively taken part in the "information exchange", being given the opportunity to voice their own point of view - even if that's simply regurgitating propaganda they've been fed. Your government may decide to spend billions on promoting one idea or another, make it part of legislation and what not, but it won't take root until people discuss it with others to the extent where they feel ownership of the thoughts they express.

Popular view on racism, sexism, homosexuality, religion etc is controlled by those able to controll the discussions - right/wrong isn't really that important, "activism" much less so. Make sure that everyone saying negative things about what you want to be "the new belief" are consistently and publically crucified and riddiculed, and you can just lean back and wait for the inevitable change of public opinion, all through the population. You'll get so much free help from people loving to tell others what they can and can't say that once you've gotten the ball rolling, it'll keep gaining momentum, and can only be slowed down by directing the same people towards a new "PC flavour of the month".
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Telika: snip
While I agree with the direction of the changes of most of your items the last 50 years, I disagree with most of the stated "goals" of public opinion - most having to do with the distinction between "of equal, inherit value" and "equality". I'm too tired to get into that now, though..
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Telika: 2) Likewise, feminism has won, at some level.
Yeah, I wish.

(Sexual) violence against women isn't decreasing, the attitude towards it isn't getting any better, pornography is becoming more and more ubiquitous and violent and is basically mainstream now (very much related to points 1 and 2, of course), women still earn less, there's still a glass ceiling in most companies, gangsta rap is popular, cosmetic surgery is always on the rise (vaginoplasty, for Christ's sake!) and so forth. The only way feminism can be said to have won is that pressure is mounting on males too, we're basically engaged in a cold war of genders. But that's not what was originally intended.

As for gay rights, that's a weird one. In Germany, some of our top politicians are openly gay, as are many of our most popular TV personalities. Yet, same-sex marriage is still not legal. Hate to say it, but Christian moral values are partly to blame.
What I thought when reading the title: The earth is round.

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Jaime: ...
As for gay rights, that's a weird one. In Germany, some of our top politicians are openly gay, as are many of our most popular TV personalities. Yet, same-sex marriage is still not legal. Hate to say it, but Christian moral values are partly to blame. ...
Because they believe in the values of families, of a women and a men more specific which can have children. They believe so strongly that they feel such a relation must be subsidized by special tax rules etc.

Being gay in the arabian world is no picnic either. Probably not all people will agree but religion is nowadays a good excuse for being a bad ass. Just look at the recent example. Somebody produces a really distasteful movie and others take this as an excuse for burning some houses down and killing others and themselves. Both in the name of religion or nationalism or whatever.

Plato already said he is a citizen of the universe. We don't need to say more. It was clear 2000 years before what is right and wrong and still people do the wrong things and they will continue...
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Skunk: All I can say is that cigarettes will kill you, weed should be legal, I have a phobia of being around homophobes, the left exists to fight the right, the right exists to fight the left, both sides exist to fight amongst each other, I have no love for religion, there are too many people in the world, most of them are dumb as hell, the ones with all the power have a way of making those morons look sharp, I can't claim to know anything about the opposite sex outside of what my hormones tell me, and we're all a bunch of greasy monkeys that will be forgotten once our mechanical successors wipe us out with a death ray and build a great citadel from our bones.
Hear, hear! :)

Speaking of the population, that must be a really tricky one. Because of the basis of our future survival we'll probably never legalize, on a world scale, to minimize reproduction and I hope I never will have that job, it must be beyond ridiculously hard.
What do we agree on?

Death and taxes
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Jaime: (Sexual) violence against women isn't decreasing, the attitude towards it isn't getting any better, pornography is becoming more and more ubiquitous and violent and is basically mainstream now
There are men in porn too, you know. Just... Saying.
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Trilarion: Because they believe in the values of families, of a women and a men more specific which can have children. They believe so strongly that they feel such a relation must be subsidized by special tax rules etc.
Pretty much, yeah. It's all about this very conservative view of the institution of marriage and the family unit. I find it hard to believe that even one of our top politicians is a homophobe in the traditional sense.

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Fenixp: There are men in porn too, you know. Just... Saying.
Yeah... I know.
Post edited September 26, 2012 by Jaime
Sadly, I notice that modern feminism relying on "positive discrimination" is just another form of sexism.

And pornography, because somebody said that. There is no slavery in porn. Women act in porn voluntarily.
Post edited September 26, 2012 by keeveek
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keeveek: And pornography, because somebody said that. There is no slavery in porn. Women act in porn voluntarily.
Depends on your definition of voluntarily. Having to support an expensive drug habit (since most women and men in porn are addicts), being forced by a violent pimp or fiancé (many porn "stars" are prostitutes), having to relive traumatic experiences of abuse (because most women in porn have been sexually abused, often when they were still children), being bound by shady contracts... not that all this is why I mentioned pornography.
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Jaime: Depends on your definition of voluntarily. Having to support an expensive drug habit (since most women and men in porn are addicts),
Eeem.... They voluntarily became an addicts. I don't see milions of people crying over junkies, why would they care about porn star junkies?

You know, many people go to work they hate, because they need to feed their families for example, but it doesn't mean they don't work voluntarily.

At least here "pimping" is a crime, so if it happens, the girl may seek protection by law, if she wants to.

With your def. nobody works voluntarily, because everybody needs money to survive. Except for commies who live on expense of others.

I like German position on pornography and prostitution. It's the healthiest thing in the world to make it legal and taxated.
Post edited September 26, 2012 by keeveek
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keeveek: You know, many people go to work they hate, because they need to feed their families for example, but it doesn't mean they don't work voluntarily.
Except they don't get beaten up or raped when they quit. And aren't suicidal with anywhere near the same likelihood as workers in the sex industry.

Not that there aren't many other shit jobs. I've worked in companies where the line workers were treated like slaves, and that's obviously wrong, too.
Post edited September 26, 2012 by Jaime
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Telika: We're not out of the woods yet, of course. "Feminism" is still used derogatively, and many people feel the need to distancize themselves from it ("i'm not a feminist but i think women should have the same rights as men" - duh, that's feminism, moron).
Depends who you ask. Sorry I don't have a link handy, but I have read a feminist writer arguing that a man (male) cannot be a feminist, only women can. I think I need to find that article stating that, as I don't recall what was her basis for that argument. But, it was said by someone who calls herself a feminist. Maybe she is wrong, I don't know. (***)

So going by that, I think I can say that I am not a feminist (because I am male?), but I don't think people should be discriminated for their gender, anymore than for their height, age, looks etc. Yet, I also believe that such discrimination exist in all those levels, and it may be very hard to get completely rid of it.

For example, deep down many people may feel that a taller, older(?), or more handsome/beautiful, person is more fit to be a president than someone who is less of any of those. Or, there seems to be a consensus that on the average taller and more handsome people have better careers and earn more money in their lifetime.

I don't know if there should be laws granting short, ugly and obese people to have a quota in company executive boards etc., just so that no such discrimination takes place.


(***) Googling for "voiko mies olla feministi" ("can a man be a feminist") found many hits, so here's one of the hits, google-translated from Finnish:

http://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vihrealanka.fi%2Fnode%2F4887

A rough quote:
Secretary-General of green women Sirpa Hertell believes that men can not be feminists, because the idea is gender specific.
Also, another hit concluded that a man can't be a feminist because men lack the knowledge of what it is like to be a woman in men's world ("...puuttuu naiseuden kokemus...").

I guess that is why some have come with the "pro-feminist" term, apparently meaning "quasi-feminist" or "lesser feminists" who should have no say on the feminist agenda, whatever that is. But they are still free to agree with and promote the ideas of the real (female) feminists, I gather.
Post edited September 26, 2012 by timppu