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Reading a rogue guide over at http://www.ign.com/faqs/2003/neverwinter-nights-rogue-class-faq-425101 (it seems to be quite old, only going as high as level 20, and not mentioning prestige classes at all), I thought about rogue/wizard/arcane archer build, and got a few questions there:

1) Is the guide accurate, claiming that sneak attacks with ranged weapon (bow in this case) are possible?

2) How exactly do epic feats work, if the character is in epic levels, but class is not? Say I'd put 8 levels in rogue (to get the necessary BAB), one level in wizard, and 11 levels in Arcane Archer (to get the combat class BAB progression until level 20). After that, if I'd like to get wizard's epic feat "Improved Combat Casting", would I have to put 20+ class levels in Wizard, or would I be able to take it the first time I'd be able to pick a non-bonus feat, or wizard's bonus feat (wizard class level 5, according to NWN wiki), assuming I'd be able to fulfill all the other requirements? Or if neither of those is true, how would that work?
1): Yes you can sneak attack with a bow, but it has to be at fairly close range and I haven't found it to be that reliable.

2): Depends on the specific feat. But if you want to be an Arcane Archer, forget spell casting as anything but a requirement to qualify for AA.

Both Spellcasting and AA cry out for max levels, if you try to balance them, you will just kind of suck at both.

Best AA/Rogue build is an Elf:

Pre-epic: Rogue 8/Wiz 2/AA 10 (you can only have 10 levels of AA pre-epic).

Epic: Almost all AA with couple of Rogue levels to top up skills.
Post edited September 08, 2016 by PeterScott
I played around a bit with the build in game (by using cheats and giving myself XP, then seeing what I can and can't do), and I'm thinking about something like that:

Levels 1-9: Rogue 1-8, Wizard 1 (to cover the required BAB and Feats).
Levels 10-19: Arcane Archer 1-10.
Levels 20-26: Wizard 2-8 (to get Improved Invisibility and a few other support spells, as well as Improved Combat Casting feat).
Somewhere between 27 and 39: Rogue 9 (to get more skill points, saved up from AA levels), rest Arcane Archer (to level 22).
Level 40: Rogue 10, to top off skills (again, saved up from AA levels), and get Improved Evasion.

I guess the fairly obvious problem (if I want both the skills and Imp. Evasion) is only getting the latter at max level, which I might not even reach, but aside from that (which I can't think of a way around, alas), do you think that could work?
You have nearly unlimited choices in how you build your character, so you can do it that way and still survive.

But I would never waste an Epic feat on "improved combat casting", especially on a character with so few spells to cast. Especially since as a Rogue Archer, you probably will be avoiding melee as much as possible.

Instead of more mage levels, I would just maximize "Use Magic Device" skill and use wands/scrolls.

For the most part though. I prefer to go the Bard/Fighter route for Arcane Archer to get Epic Weapon Specialization to really pump up Arrow damage, which is the bread and butter of the class. This was on of my first/favorite builds to take to the end of Hordes of the Underdark. It ends with your character around level 25-27 typically.

I never found any modules that continue after HotU worth playing.

The only good module that I think ended at Higher levels was "The Aielund Saga". Which I think I finished in the early 30's.
Post edited September 08, 2016 by PeterScott
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piranha1: 2) How exactly do epic feats work, if the character is in epic levels, but class is not? Say I'd put 8 levels in rogue (to get the necessary BAB), one level in wizard, and 11 levels in Arcane Archer (to get the combat class BAB progression until level 20). After that, if I'd like to get wizard's epic feat "Improved Combat Casting", would I have to put 20+ class levels in Wizard, or would I be able to take it the first time I'd be able to pick a non-bonus feat, or wizard's bonus feat (wizard class level 5, according to NWN wiki), assuming I'd be able to fulfill all the other requirements? Or if neither of those is true, how would that work?
The bonus feats from your class are not epic until that class reaches 21
The bonus feats from your total level are epic when your total level reach 21

So you can use your no-bonus feat to take the epic feat, but not use wizard bonus feat to do so.
sneak attacks with bows is fine but yes as the above poster said you need to be close to do a bow sneak attack for some dumb reason. This means that you'll want to be positioning your character to be able to flank foes and get into position to sneak attack. Other than that it works fine you just need to be controlling your character more than say if you are playing a warrior/melee type.

I also wouldn't go much wizard levels other than as needing a level, your power as an AA is your bow and arrows, not spells. Weakening your archery ability in order to cast a couple low level spells, have a party member buff you instead and focus on your shooting.
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piranha1: I played around a bit with the build in game (by using cheats and giving myself XP, then seeing what I can and can't do), and I'm thinking about something like that:
Instead of using cheats, it's much more convenient and fun to download the pretty good character creator/customiser module.

It does what it says on the tin, albeit with a bit of understatement: it's actually very good.

It not only lets you set and reset your level to whatever value you want, but also lets you buy (and create) equipment and test the character in combat in an arena or in a forest with level-appropriate enemies. It even has a combat dummy that keeps track of which of your characters hits the hardest.

Lots of fun, and much easier than cheats.

Other than that, PeterScott's advice is good. I'd listen to him.
Post edited September 09, 2016 by Jason_the_Iguana
actually using in-game cheats is much easier than those other methods. Many use givexp console commands and resetlevels to experiment with your character build to see how it might develop.
Use more convenient levelup instead of giveXP [XP amount] command.
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eolsunder: actually using in-game cheats is much easier than those other methods. Many use givexp console commands and resetlevels to experiment with your character build to see how it might develop.
That command isn't in NWN1 though.

In NWN2, the debug console can do lots of neat stuff like adding feats and using that resetlevels command. The NWN1 version is somewhat more limited.
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PeterScott: Instead of more mage levels, I would just maximize "Use Magic Device" skill and use wands/scrolls.

For the most part though. I prefer to go the Bard/Fighter route for Arcane Archer to get Epic Weapon Specialization to really pump up Arrow damage, which is the bread and butter of the class. This was on of my first/favorite builds to take to the end of Hordes of the Underdark. It ends with your character around level 25-27 typically.
The problem with that (bard/AA that is, not dumping mage levels) is that I'm thinking about the character with modules in mind, that are less combat-heavy, and rely more on skills and "RP" (like for example Tales of Arterra might be, from what little I've read about it), hence rogue is sort of a must, with biggest amount of points per level, and wide array of class skills. (for the modules shipped with game, I'm thinking to just go barbarian and smash my way through them)

So, maybe I should ask another question: Which class should I mix a rogue with, to get a good assortment of skills, and a decent combat character? (as some fighting will happen in those modules anyway, I think)
Some class synergy between the two (or three) wouldn't hurt, either.
Race-wise, even if not going for AA, I'm thinking between human (extra feat and skill point) or elf (active searching all the time, more weapon skills, some spell resistances/immunities) - which I guess will matter for the classes I'd pick, and (not) getting the XP penalty.

Edit: I generally favor good-aligned characters, or at least neutrals, so the likes of Blackguard, Assassin etc., aren't really going to work.

Edit 2: Rogue/shadow dancer (only one level) maybe, get to keep rogue's skills and their progression, and restealthing to backstab the enemy over and over? (perhaps mixed with some real fighting class, if I ever decide I have my skills high enough)
Post edited September 09, 2016 by piranha1
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piranha1: The problem with that (bard/AA that is, not dumping mage levels) is that I'm thinking about the character with modules in mind, that are less combat-heavy, and rely more on skills and "RP" (like for example Tales of Arterra might be, from what little I've read about it), hence rogue is sort of a must, with biggest amount of points per level, and wide array of
class skills. (for the modules shipped with game, I'm thinking to just go barbarian and smash my way through them)
Actually, bard builds are a great choice for such modules, since bards get lots and lots of class skills, as well as an inherent bonus to lore (an often-used skill in story modules, that you don't need to invest in much further as a bard). Plus, you're the only one with Perform, and I recall several modules where that skill was used to allow you to do stuff.

It's true that you get (far) fewer skillpoints per level, but with a 14 intelligence you still get 6. You need Tumble and Spellcraft (but the latter again is a skill people often check in modules) and only need a modest investment in Lore and Perform to be effective at those, so that leaves plenty of skillpoints for stuff like persuade, bluff, listen or search.

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piranha1: So, maybe I should ask another question: Which class should I mix a rogue with, to get a good assortment of skills, and a decent combat character? (as some fighting will happen in those modules anyway, I think)
Quite a lot of fighting, actually. Even the RP heavy modules I know tend to include quite a large number of battles. It's been years since I played the Arterra modules, but they had quite a lot of it, actually. (Although many encounters were optional.)

The few exceptions that come to mind are Almraiven (though not so much the sequel), Honour among Thieves and similar rogue-specific modules, (You are stealing stuff, not killing stuff. Lots of fun, by the way.) and Excrucio Eternum. (but the first module in that series has quite a bit of hack and slash in between the story bits.) Even the almost entirely dialogue-based whodunnit mystery Black Thorn has a tough epic level fight at the end. (Well, if you succeed, that is. I've failed that one almost as often as I've succeeded.)

The thing to bear in mind about these modules is that they are designed to be played with any kind of character. So mostly, the skill checks will NOT be designed so that only a rogue with maxed out stats can make them. So as long as you have a moderate investment in a skill, you'll almost certainly meet the requirements.

Anyway, class combos that work well:

Rogue/fighter. This is the simplest combination by far, but it just works. Fighter levels mean your rogue can use heavier armour and shields if need be, as well as making it much easier to deal with sneak attack immune foes. The rogue levels meanwhile give you tons of skillpoints to play around with.

I like the version that has mostly rogue levels, wears a chain shirt, uses a shield and is strength based. Makes for a neat swashbuckling swordsman archetype. With only a moderate armour check penalty, you'll still be able to sneak and do rogue-ish stuff, but you're much better in a straight up fight.

If you want you can add in a level of shadowdancer to really increase the utility of your sneak attacks, but you should be careful with that in high-level modules, since it can limit your total number of attacks per round, depending on how many fighter levels you have. This approach works better with dual-wielding characters, since you really want to maximise the number of sneak attacks you make. But you'll hate fighting undead.

Other variants such as rogue/barbarian and rogue/ranger work just as well, depending on what exactly you want to do. This combo works well for lots of races, but Humans and Halflings have the easiest time avoiding multiclass penalties. Elves do get a neat permanent search mode, though.

Bard/fighter Same idea, only less stealth and more magic. Fun character. You should only take 1 or 2 fighter levels early on, but since bards don't really get anything useful past level 16, you can take some more fighter levels then. You're a bit lower on the skills, but you should do alright.

Bards are surprisingly strong and effective characters, thanks to their buffing spells and excellent bard-song and curse-song abilities. The fighter levels do help a lot in reducing the squish-factor, though. I find this character type works best when just wearing heavy armour and shield, having a high strength and taking the Still Spell feat or just not casting any spells in combat at all. (You can take the armour off to cast buffs) But the lightly armoured dex-based version also works quite well.

Human is by far the best race, because you really want that extra skillpoint per level, and very few other races can avoid multi-class penalties. The bonus feat won't hurt either.

If you want, you can later add Red Dragon Disciple levels, which makes for a very strong character. But that will give you fewer skillpoints, and bard abilities are a lot more fun to use than just having a huge strength score, so I typically leave that until epic levels when I already have all the spells and such.
Post edited September 09, 2016 by Jason_the_Iguana
You mentioned rogue/ranger, ever tried that?

I'm thinking about giving it a try (probably as human), starting with rogue, picking one level of shadow dancer when I can, and after maybe about 9 or 10 levels of rogue, going with ranger until 20 (for better BAB), then 10th level of rogue if I won't have it yet (for Imp. Evasion) and some more skill points, then at some later character level maybe one or two more rogue levels to get more and higher skills.

BTW, how high should I get Use Magic Device to be able to use all that fancy gear of other classes? Monk stuff with agility mostly comes to mind. Also for that combo, would you take Weapon Finesse feat, or put points in Strength/try to get items increasing it?
Post edited September 09, 2016 by piranha1
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piranha1: So, maybe I should ask another question: Which class should I mix a rogue with, to get a good assortment of skills, and a decent combat character? (as some fighting will happen in those modules anyway, I think)
To the plenty of good advice from Jason, I'll add some comments of my own.

The Rogue is by far my favorite class. I have played dozens of different characters, 90%+ of them had Rogue in them. Humans are my favorite Race, and I always play good/neutral characters (No Assassins/Blackguards). I usually play strong, tough rogues, not dex rogues. I don't like relying on Sneak Attack damage, since there are so many immune enemies.

What I mix with my Rogue:

Primary:

Fighter: Most of my Rogues have Fighter in them - BAB, Feats, Martial Weapons, and of course [Epic] Weapon Specialization.

Ranger: They don't have the feats of the fighter, or weapons specialization, but they have good Rogue synergy. With more skill points, and stealth as class skill. More flavor.

Secondary:
Champion of Torm: Lots of feats and boost Saves (saves are usually weak on fighter-rogue)
Paladin: Undead Suck. Being immune to disease/fear is so helpful.
Shadow Dancer: HIPS
Weapon master: More damage with one weapon, but painful feat cost.
Dwarven Defender: Toughness

Some Combos:
Fighter/Rogue/CoT: Great all round character. Lots of feats, boosted saves, WS/EWS. If going epic. I end both fighter/CoT on odd levels. That gives two quick bonus epic feats after level 20.

Fighter/Rogue/Paladin: Undead fighting Rogue. What I used in Ravenloft Mods. Need to be careful with levels to avoid XP penalties or just live with them.

Fighter/Ranger/Rogue: What I used in Aielund Saga. Eventually I had Ranger Bane of Enemies and Fighter EWS. Kick ass combo if going to very high levels. Not bad at lower levels. Also need to be careful about XP penalties.

Fighter/Rogue/Shadow Dancer: HIPS...
Post edited September 09, 2016 by PeterScott
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piranha1: You mentioned rogue/ranger, ever tried that?

I'm thinking about giving it a try (probably as human), starting with rogue, picking one level of shadow dancer when I can, and after maybe about 9 or 10 levels of rogue, going with ranger until 20 (for better BAB), then 10th level of rogue if I won't have it yet (for Imp. Evasion) and some more skill points, then at some later character level maybe one or two more rogue levels to get more and higher skills.
I have. I generally like the Fighter version better, since you need too many Ranger levels to really get the good benefits. (9 for Improved Two Weapon fighting, at least 10 or 15 to get a decent number of/bonuses against favoured enemies) You need just 4-6 fighter levels to get enough bonus feats, including Epic Weapon Specialisation if you time it right.

But a build like you plan will work fine.

In general, though, you're MUCH better off taking a ranger level as soon as possible. Most classes are pretty front-loaded when it comes to the stuff you get. If you take that Ranger level immediately, you'll get:
* Weapon Proficiency with all martial and simple weapons (including longbows)
* Shield proficiency (Even if you dual wield, a shield is VERY helpful for boss fights)
* Medium Armour Proficiency (So you can wear a chain shirt)
* The ability to Dual Wield (but only as long as you wear light armour, so there goes that chain shirt. But still useful if you want better armour for tough fights early on.)
* A favoured enemy
* A bunch more hitpoints. (You get maximum hitpoints for your first 3 levels. Picking ranger as your second level means you get the full 10 hitpoints.)

That's a lot of stuff for 1 level. After that, though, you get nothing of note until level 5 (second favourite enemy, better bonuses against all favoured enemies) and 6. (Animal companion, but too weak to do much at this point.) And then improved 2 weapon fighting at level 9, and another favoured enemy at 10.

So, get that first level ASAP so you can use equipment the way you want. (The same would go for a fighter/rogue incidentally.)

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piranha1: one level of shadow dancer when I can, about 9 or 10 levels of rogue, going with ranger until 20 (for better BAB),
BAB is a funny thing. If you take the levels this way, you will actually get a pretty low BAB.

Rogue and Shadow Dancer are both a 3/4ths BAB class. This means you don't get any BAB for the 1st level, the 5th level, the 9th, 13th, etc. To get a high BAB, you should therefore take the classes in multiples of 4 levels.

If you take 9 rogue levels and 1 Shadowdancer levels and the rest ranger, your BAB is just as bad as when you take 12 rogue levels and 4 shadowdancer levels and the rest ranger.

Still, you don't want to take 4 shadowdancer levels since they won't get you anything, and you do want 9 ranger levels for improved dual wielding. And as long as you take at least 8 ranger levels before level 20, you'll always get that important-to-have 4th attack per round. (Technically, you don't need more than 4, but that's only if you stick to the multiples-of-4 rule for the other two classes, and that won't really work for you.)

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piranha1: BTW, how high should I get Use Magic Device to be able to use all that fancy gear of other classes? Monk stuff with agility mostly comes to mind. Also for that combo, would you take Weapon Finesse feat, or put points in Strength/try to get items increasing it?
UMD works in multiples of 5. (Modified, so counting CHA bonuses and penalties and such.

How high the skill needs to be depends on the module you're playing: the requirements are based of the cost of magic items, so if a module has super-high level loot, you need a high UMD skill.

In general, an UDM of 15 lets you use pre-epic items for different classes (i.e. monk stuff) but you'd need a modified skill of 20 to use stuff for different races (i.e. a suit of armour that's only supposed to be for Dwarves) and 25 if you want to use items meant for different alignments. (i.e. a Holy Avenger when you're not particularly Holy nor a Paladin.)

As you correctly guessed, it's the monk stuff that's most important to a rogue, so 15 will go a long way.
Post edited September 10, 2016 by Jason_the_Iguana