Hi all,

I'm just messaging hoping for the potential of getting a health issues option in the refund process.

It feels awkward using 'other' when experience a health problem that is impacted by specific games, their styles, mechanics, camera motion, or other. The latest example for me was severe motion sickness because of camera lag while you flew a ship around in a top-down view. That sort of disjointed movement threw me for a massive spin and I could not proceed.

The reasoning? I don't want to keep selecting 'Other' and at some point, having a refund denied for something I cannot help, when I could put the funds then towards something safer like an RTS with scalable camera speed.

There are no disclaimers or clear ways of identifying games that might cause motion sickness that I have seen in games lately, like how some games have epilepsy warnings.

Is there potential for this? Does anyone else actually also want this?

EDIT: Only just saw the option for a question topic type. Sorry for anyone seeing this unintentionally.

Actual content warnings and mitigations (if possible) would be lovely to list on game cards. A ton of Capcom fighting games are painful to play due to their insistence on full screen strobes.

Great point! The actual warnings would be amazing, too. I can only see it as a benefit - less of us with specific needs making refund claims, so their processes are more efficient, and more of us buying games we feel (or know) will be more playable for us.

I swear my disorientation and motion sickness is getting worse as I get older and I'm only 36, so I figured I could not be the only one having to seek refunds for games they never thought would affect them. Videos unfortunately do little to show how the motion affects when it's also movement based and related to my actual control of a character. I imagine it could be the same for some video footage with strobing effects still perceived differently when playing where it's harsher or affects more?

There is always a need for specificity.
It's been an ongoing problem in games with few realized alternatives.

There's not a fair argument against it.

In regards of having to deal with vestibular issues, I get it, I really do. As a kid I always had a weak vestibular system, but as I got older games I used to handle without issue now cause me massive grief. Headaches & nausea (vomiting), vestibular migraines, triggered vertigo etc. As we age seemingly those with vestibular imbalances lose some extra protections youth gave us which helped defend us against it. Hearing, sight, balance and perception (brain) have to be working in sync very well not to cause a human being problems. And yeah, by my 20s I sorta noticed I was more susceptible to imbalance, by my 30s I definitely took heed and had to give up some gameplay, now in my 40s... well, you tend to get pickier the older you get. Age does make such imbalance events much more common, unfortunately. Also keep in mind the potential for chronic diseases which masquerade as benign "dizziness". If it really bothers you, consult your GP ... you might need an appointment with an ENT.

But to be brutally honest when it comes to entertainment products I know that my vestibular issues are really my problem. It's great when the game has options (fov settings etc) which can mitigate vestibular issues, or when intelligent souls have learned how to tweak the game in other ways, but I always did count my medical issues as mine, you know? I've learned the hard way that some games I just can't play any more. Some might stand out in the pack as being more bearable - some older FPS shooters for instance are WAY worse to play than some newer ones simply due to movement. But then again some newer games which use features like camera shaking etc are bad as well. For me it's a risk to indulge in certain game types. A happy result if I can play it, a sad one it I cannot. But it's not GOG's fault nor the dev's fault that my body is incompatible for certain entertainment. I take my personal responsibility for my own purchases very seriously.

I haven't seen anyone advertising a game ever give us a guarantee that we can play it without making us feel ill, so when a game makes us sick... that's our problem, isn't it? I mean it's a better excuse for refund than "I didn't like it", but in the past I would have Buckley's chance to return, say, a bicycle because it gave me heart palpitations when pedalling it. What's next, refunding Dead Space because it near caused me a heart attack after playing the first couple of minutes? Some features are meant to cause panic, or fright, or disorientation, or bedazzlement. The fact that we have medical issues which make certain game designs unbearable for us specifically is not the dev's fault, and it's not the platform's fault for selling it.

I don't see a need to have a specific refund process for a medical problem on the user's end. The product isn't faulty, it's not false advertisement. It's functioning as intended, but some few users (us) aren't well suited to it.

If GOG gives you the boon of a refund, then that's really nice of them. If that means all you have to suffer is a little bit of "awkwardness" in explaining yourself to get that refund, then saddle it buddy. Because in that case GOG is going beyond what you're guaranteed under Australian Consumer Law for sure - a user's medical conditions are not grounds alone for a refund of a product.

Accessibility issues, including issues that make the game not safe to play, should be a valid reason for returning a game.

There have been cases where a game would get updated to mitigate, remove, or allow turning off (in the settings) those problems, so if the game is still actively being maintained, you might consider contacting the developer and seeing if they'll work on an update. Something like this happened with Cyberpunk 2077; there was an animation, happening in multiple mandatory story sequences, that was causing seizures in some players (including at least one reviewer). After an outcry, this animation was toned down to mitigate the issue.

The problem is, it is relatively well understood what can trigger seizures in epilepsy patients and it's also usually not a constant part of the game but pops up in very specific instances. That's why there is a generic "scenes with flashing lights" disclaimer in most games.

Motion sickness is much more "fluid". I have seen lots of discussions where people affected by this talked about their personal "vomit" games and there was always invariably the consensus that there was no consensus. What was perfectly fine for one player was absolutely unbearable for another. For some it's FOV or Third Person or First Person or Shaky Cam or parallax scrolling or any combination thereof. Even individually there were always accounts like "games made in engine XYZ will trigger my motion sickness, except for game ABC which for some reason doesn't" or "shaky cam will make me nauseous except when it's third person unreal engine" and so on.

To put such a cornucopia of potential triggers into a disclaimer would muddle it so much that the disclaimer in itself would become useless to the individual. You'd have a trigger warning on every game that contains any kind of camera motion and you'd be back to square one. At the end 90% of games would contain a slightly more legalese-y version of "This game may or may not make you projectile vomit uncontrollably. You might be fine, though. I don't know, just try it and hope for the best? YOLO?".

Absolutely. It's an entirely personal and unique situation to each individual, and it could be anything from biological difference of the user, to hardware difference of the gaming setup which add up to the triggering stimuli. And it can easily differ between games and effects for the same user. Over time you tend to learn the limits of your condition, how to avoid as best you can your triggers, how to detect the signs of trouble and stop exposing yourself in time to avoid the worst outcomes and how to deal with the inevitable repercussions on a bad gamble, no matter the extent.

For instance, stuttering in some FPS is a huge problem for me, but in others of the same genre & design it's not as bad. Some games I've fiddled with different FOV with varying levels of success. Some camera shaking or swaying is an instant upchuck, some aren't as much an issue. Some games - even TPP of random game types I usually don't have problems with - cause me super, almost migraine-level, headaches. Some make me simply nauseous. And rarely are the reasons 100% clear. You tend to know the players and the ballpark but not the end result of the game. Some games, despite me having been tested negative for signs of epilepsy, have light strobing which frankly make me feel oooooogy. And some games purporting to cause seizures do absolutely nothing to me. Even sounds in some games almost trigger something, but other similar ones do not.

I'm uniquely wired. And I've heard of others with vestibular issues with similar stories. The "same thing" doesn't guarantee a trigger, but in general you get a feel for what you might want to avoid as a whole.

~

I guess the weirdest part of me is my insistence that no-one else but me should be held responsible for my own frailties. The developer made a game, assumingly suitable for the vast majority of the gaming population. They and the platform have sold said game with a limited set of guarantees of what the product offers. If I find the product doesn't suit me because of my medical conditions then that's my problem for buying a potentially triggering entertainment product in the first place. Which could be any game - or movie - frankly. I made an adequately informed decision in buying the product. I'm satisfied the developers and platform haven't defrauded me for they made no guarantees regarding those with medical issues. So no, I don't believe in refunds for medical conditions... unless of course the developer has made claims it's safe for said conditions, which would be very foolish thing to do if they ever did.

Is the whole world turning into a place where everyone else is responsible for one's own shortcomings?

Should I return my car for a refund because it makes me ill to drive it erratically in traffic?

If anyone is interested, the magic word is "Vertigo".

Also, the DOS Terminator games cause it as well. But it takes a little while, so you dont notice until about 30 minutes after playing. Then you get up and feel like the room is spinning. Talk about ironic naming, one game is called Futureshock.

Not really related (or maybe a bit), but I still can't get over it that I used to play FPS games for many many years, maybe even over a decade, with an inverted (y) mouse as that just somehow felt more natural to me. A bit like pulling the mouse back is like pulling your upper body backwards in order to look up, felt very natural. (Or then it was simply because by that time I had played lots of flight combat sims with a joystick where there are always inverted controls, like in real planes).

Then I happened to play a certain FPS game (the name escapes me but I am sure I could find it by googling, some kind of futuristic military FPS game, I've mentioned it also in these forums before) where I felt that uneasy feeling there is something seriously wrong with the controls.

It felt very weird, I couldn't put my finger on it why it felt so odd to aim in that game with a mouse... but then I happened to "uninvert" the Y-axis, and boom! The game felt so natural to play!

And the odd thing was, after that the "uninverted" mouse felt the most natural way to play all my FPS games, including those which I had played already before with an inverted mouse.

I don't know what flip was switched in my brain by that game. Oddly enough, flight combat sims etc. still feel natural with an inverted joystick.

A specific event you can end up with, but not the only imbalance one can suffer. You can have symptoms of headaches and nausea long prior to finally experiencing a bout vertigo, or you may get it immediately or not at all.

It's not the name of the underlying cause, but one potential condition you may find yourself experiencing. Hence we don't specifically use the word vertigo, because it's not guaranteed in all cases.

If there's a "I didn't like the game" refund option, then why not have a "gave me medical issues" option as well? But think a little "Wishmaster" and evaluate what you wish for. Because that's additional data that may end up being used against you in the future. Not saying by GOG, but let's just assume Steam might also include such an option if GOG does.

WRT such issues, I nearly gave up on CTTS because it gave me RSI due to its lack of key rebinds. I use the mouse left-hand and thus WASD is a literal pain. I could just put up with it and use the mouse right-hand, because years ago I made an effort to train both hands for mouse use, but that is not an option for most so it's still a valid complaint.

Regarding the Vertigo mentioned by Shmacky-McNuts: check the way you hold your head (neck) and your breathing. If you hold your neck in a strained position for longer times (playing games does that to you) seems to "be bad" for the feeling of balance. Maybe it's all the nerves that connect through the neck to the spine and get strained, or the Aorta which might get less throughput and thus your brain starts to suffocate a little.
Which brings me to the breathing: when not being physically active (like when playing games) your breathing increasingly shallows and its frequency decreases (I guess not in an FPS or MOBA ;) ). You'd expect the brain to do something about being starved of oxygen, but probably it's the "boiling a frog" effect. Anyway, try to consciously boost breathing when you notice it has shallowed; if lack of oxygen was the problem, it should go away.

Finally, there's something else entirely: expectation. If you expect a specific delay (or lack thereof) between control input and character / camera movement, this may trigger nausea, etc. if the expectations are not met. Consciously thinking about it and readjusting your expectations may make it go away. This seems to be at least similar to the inverted Y axis timppu posted about. In his case, I assume that since mouse works non-invertedly in almost all cases, whereas Joystick, not being used for general computing, does not, the expectations when using mouse are by now different from when using Joystick, even though they weren't in the beginning.

Probably all of this only works with mild cases, but if it helps even one person, then something good has come out of it.

It may feel awkward, but don't let this deter you from continuing to do so. GOG offers a no questions asked refund policy (with caveats, i.e. try to make an informed decision, don't abuse it or they may reserve the right to a refund), meaning that the option you select is either a meaningless courtesy, or it is useful information that GOG may use to improve sales or the user experience in the future. If it's the former, simply refund the game, and don't allow it to concern you. Think no less of yourself, nor suffer embarrassment for doing so, whatever reason applies to you. In both cases GOG seemingly doesn't consider it meaningful enough to collect, despite having access to everyone's refund data. So there might not be much potential.

Perhaps you could ask your question from a different perspective, is adding an option like you suggest going to provide meaningful and useful information to GOG; does GOG currently engage in the practice of informing developers of why their games are being returned? I'd have to consult a developer to answer this... but I would be inclined to believe they do not, or don't fully.
But either way, the information would be best off in the hands of other consumers like yourself, which seems most effectively achieved from direct reports to the developers, or the providing of information to groups of similarly affected players, rather than in an option for refunding a game. As others have mentioned, the vendor cannot possibly cater for every conceivable ailment, so those in the other links of the chain must be increasingly diligent to offset that.

I guess GOG are keeping it simple, and in reality they are not requiring you to give proof, and anyone can claim anything.

So as irksome as 'Other' is, what difference does it make really.

I'd just type in 'Health Reason' and leave it at that. If GOG need more information, they will ask for it, but they will likely only do that, if there is some issue with giving you a refund.

Appreciate everyone's insights. Good arguments for and against. The main reason was more just so when we try to work out games and find what does or does not apply, it's that bit of extra context. Rightfully so, as some pointed out, it could be unnecessary when it's a 'no questions asked' policy regarding refunds. Perhaps it's me trying to just provide too much information unnecessarily when I felt the context was just good to help legitimise. As pointed out, it's my (our) issue - do we need to give that context if reasons aren't needed?

I guess 'Other' covers it. I suppose part of it is not wanting to, hypothetically, try 10 different games and finding 7 didn't work, so I submit 7 refunds, look like I'm abusing the system, and cannot refund the games when I did not know that could occur. Still my issue, yes, but I just feel like being able to validate my experience would prevent that. Maybe.

Alternatively, if when we select 'Other', we could type the details as an option, that would be nice to get the best of both worlds - leave it blank or add extra information if we're concerned we might be impacted in the future. Cheers mate, appreciate your reply. I'm 36 and still working out what I can and cannot play. I've never known what it is, so I appreciate your insights and will look into it further myself and with the GP.

The issue I run into is when game videos look like it would be playable only to find out it isn't because of the disconnect that makes me experience the nausea and need to just switch off and close my eyes for an hour or two. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to assign blame or fault to GOG or the developers. Their refund policy is 'no questions asked', I just wanted to be able to make a reasoning clear in case during the hunt for what exactly we can play, it looks like refund spam or hits some unknown criteria and we get flagged for it, and thought perhaps others wanted it as well. Very good point - I did not think of that. You're right in that everything cannot be covered. I was more stating the disclaimer point as part of my wanting some sort of medical selection as a refund reason, since I don't have a way to vet what will or will not be playable, and do not want to try 10 games in a 3 month period and return 8 of them due to medical issues, yet flagged because it comes across as a sort of 'abuse' when I really just do not know what will or will not work. As others have stated, not really necessary by the 'Other' point, so perhaps it's my need for providing additional context crossing a boundary, here. But also, as others have said, I guess it is technically my problem, too. I just felt having additional context to the 'Other' option might alleviate personal anxieties or stresses regarding returns due to medical reasons.
That would be great, but I can only select 'Other' from the drop-down and cannot type the information. In itself it might not be an issue for a game here and there, but if I tried a whole bunch of games and needed to return most, having that context might be helpful. Then again, it could technically be abused as well and need other sorts of verifications. So, maybe, it's extra features they could add, and extra information we could add, but ultimately still not add any sort of tangible value/experience...