I went back to think what pen and paper RPG is like.

Roleplaying usually involves a predefined linear story (if we ignore emergent roleplaying) where player characters attempt to resolve conflicts and overcome obstacles.

Characters have stats, and these stats are used, sometimes alongside random elements (mostly dice) to resolve the conflicts.

There's often character generation, but predefined characters are fine.

The story often involves going from place to place or exploration, but that's not strictly necessary.

I think that translates reasonably well to CRPG's, although it's not perfectly 1:1.

Oh, why not. What an RPG is to me...

It's a game where I'm provided with a customizable character whose chances of success in a conflict/resolution are determined by the choices I made when creating said character. I am not railroaded into playing a brute or a brainiac or a trickster, it's up to me to determine what my character's personality and abilities are.

It is interesting though why the definition of (C)RPGs causes such high emotions, while no one couldn't care less how one defines a fighting/racing/adventure/puzzle/strategy game... Like someone lectured me here before that Virtua Fighter games are not beat'em ups (that's e.g. Double Dragon games apparently) but fighting games, and I was like ah ok, noted.

Ok, maybe sometimes I've seen arguments what is a strategy game, e.g. RTS games aren't ones because... something. Some tried to make a division between strategy and tactical games, but I am unsure what the exact difference is. In tactical games you have separate missions and micromanage a group of units (e.g. Jagged Alliance), while strategy games are more grand in scale like Civilization or UFO: Enemy Unknown?

Also maybe some arguments about flight (combat) simulators, but in the end no one seems to have hard time admitting that e.g. the Jetfighter (or Ace Combat) series are lighter and more arcade-y flight combat games than e.g. the Falcon series.

an rpg to me, at its core, is a game with a good narrative and the ability to go one way or another.

I think it has to do with RPG becoming label for almost everything on PC nowadays, so people are under false assumption that RPG is some kind of metagenre. You can't make visual novel and label it as fighting game or strategy, it simply won't work. However such things are done with RPG genre, and it is a bit sad.

I am not sure why people dispute it despite 20 years of RPGs during golden age being built on specific, strictly defined principles. Suddenly all those classic CRPGs aren't really true CRPGs "thanks" to some new definitions, but new definitions give place to various shooters if they have at least some kind of storytelling and "C&C". Of course people are rightfully upset and emotional.

You know... nerds.


(I'm one of them.)

All this trouble, I thought you are doing something more extravagant, like playing Hunie Pop.

It was leisure suit Larry, OK?

Interesting take. I took a look at GOGs game in the Role-Playing category, to see if I could find some overall logik:

Almost all games on the list are fantasy, unless they are sci-fi. This also fits the wikipedia definition. (Interestingly, nobody seem to bring this up when defining CRPG)

Drod is on the list because it takes place in a fantasy dungeon.
King's Bounty is turn based strategy with some light character development and story. I think this games fantasy settings is the reason this games gets defined as CRPG, while, for instance, Zombie Shooter doesn't.
Zafehouse Diaries is not on the list. Most likely reason: Not a fantasy setting.

Defenders Quest is not on the list.

Some CRPG’s primary attraction is nostalgia:
Legend of Grimrock
Sanctuary RPG: Black Edition
Paper Sorcerer

Shadowrun Returns - The nostalgia thing also applies here ... the tiny figures on the screen kinda gives the feel of playing table-top rpg. Likewise, I had a dream once where the figures from Diablo II suddenly appeared in the real world - but each figure was only about an inch in length, like in the game.

Neverwinter Nights - As I remember it, this game sticks to the dice system from tabletop rpg - yet again nostalgia.

Because some games, e.g. Wizardry VII, Might and Magic and others have sci-fi elements in them or they are fully sc-fi (e.g., Robotrek, Xenogears, etc.). Setting/story doesn't define genre.

What concerns King's Bounty - it is more light strategy game with RPG elements (your hero can level up, equip various gear, has talent trees, etc.).
In 2000+ CRPGs of classic style moved largely to consoles, which are full of so-called "nostalgia". Poor situation on PC was also caused by rise of MMORPGs, and if you will look at current MMORPGs, it isn't hard to see same classic CRPG formula - level up, get better gear, kill bigger and badder dragons. People keep playing those MMORPGs for years because of that.

I am not sure why there is a need to redefine genre. It is like saying that card games don't have real definition of gameplay, so we can say that wrestling, football, etc. are basically a variations of card games. Sadly quite a number of modern RPGs are like football game which uses deck of card instead of ball and pretends to be a card game, but it doesn't mean that RPGs don't have strictly defined gameplay.

That reminded me to check how GOG categorizes the System Shock games:

System Shock Enhanced: Shooter, FPP, Sci-fi

System Shock 2: Role-playing, FPP, Sci-fi

Interesting distinction, and I happen to mostly agree with it. Maybe I would have added also "Shooter" to SS2 too, so it would have been: Role-playing, Shooter, FPP, Sci-fi. But maybe you can have only Shooter or Role-playing in that category, not sure.

I know I melee'd my way through SS2, so the lack of shooter tag is consistent to my playthrough. As the universe revolves around me, it all makes perfect sense.

Practically every game is an RPG. In every (G)ame you essentially (P)lay a (R)ole that is pertinent to the plot of said game. Put that serious nerd face away, dammit; I'll say what I please!

Good point, then again I also fought through most of the first System Shock with the laser rapier (which was also a melee weapon).

I'd actually replace the "Shooter" with "Action" in both games. No need to stress the shooting part, even in Quake or Doom games. Action is action is action.

No, setting should not be a part of genre definitions … but it looks like it is anyway. Zafehouse Diaries is much more RPG than Kings Bounty. But the latter has fantasy in it, and so GOG defines it as RPG. Drod has no RPG elements whatsover, but takes place in a fantasy dungeon, and so it gets defined as RPG too.

It seems like fantasy settings makes a game more ‘RPG’. We don’t need to like this, or believe that it is ‘correct’. But knowledge of this aspect, no matter how flawed it is, won’t hurt us.

Some people literally explodes when someone uses a word in the ‘wrong’ way. They don’t realize that words are fuzzy things, constantly evolving. The word literally, for instance, means ‘not figuratively speaking’, but is also used to add emphasis to a figure of speak. And this has its own logic too. If someone, figuratively speaking, says someone ‘explodes’ but adds ‘literally’ to make the self-evidently false claim that said person actually blew up right then and there, it gives the metaphor a great deal more impact.

But back on topic. I haven't read much Arthur C Clarke, but 'From the White Hart' delivers a rather crazy collection of stories. In one of them, a physiologist is studying those catchy songs you just can't get out of your head. He takes a large collection of these songs and feeds them into a machine, which calculates what they all have in common. Thus, he ends up with the ultimate melody, the one of which all the other songs are merely a weak shadow. Alas, that song was not meant for human ears. Tragedy ensures.

It's kinda the same reason I'm curious about the definition of RPG. Not as much whether a certain gameplay element is required for a game to be labeled RPG, but which fundamental reasoning make people feel that it is.

I don’t like it much when a debate about a definition ends up being about excluding someone from the club. This is not art, e-sport isn’t sport, digital painting aren’t original paintings, this is not roguelike, this is not a game, she’s not a gamer … It's way more valueable to expand your own understanding of a term than to guard its borders.


TL;DR We must stop the TTIP!