It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
DRM_free_fan: 1. Maths/Philosophy

It is impossible to have an infinite past. Absurdities would result if you were to have an actual infinite number of things. Since an infinite past would involve an actual infinite number of events then the universe must be finite - and therefore have a beginning.
avatar
IAmSinistar: Nothing precludes an infinite number of events. Indeed, even an infinite number of unique events are plausible. Though given the fractal nature of the universe, most events are subtle variations of a subset of truly unique events. Much in the same way most sunflowers are structurally identical but minutely distinct, so too are the events.

I am not aware of a standard argument, Aristotelean or otherwise, that requires the universe to have a fixed number of events. Please elucidate.
It isn't Aristotelean - it's the kalam argument.

The idea of an actual infinity is just conceptual. It's not descriptive of what happens in the real world. I can illustrate this if you want more detail.

Or put it another way - IF the past were really infinite then that would mean we have managed to traverse an infinite past to arrive to today. That's like somebody managing to count down all of the negative numbers and to arrive at zero at this second. That's absurb. Therefore there must have been a beginning to the universe.

avatar
DRM_free_fan: 2. Science
The universe is expanding. If you were to go back in time, the universe would decrease until a point where it didn't exist.
avatar
IAmSinistar: Incorrect, as this assumes a persistent state model that conforms to current normatives, and we already know this is not the case. Indeed, the first few seconds following the Big Bang saw universal laws and constants which vary from those we now experience. There is no reason to assume that the universe did not exists as a superdense singularity for as long as one cares to measure, before whatever shift caused it to erupt.
To use a simplified parallel example, take the explosion of a stick of dynamite. If you measure the outward pressure and distribution of matter, and then attempt to reverse it with no other mitigating calculations, you would erroneously trace the explosion cloud back to a simple mathematical point that sprang from nothingness. But instead we know that it does have an origin, and an measurable one, just as the universe does. And just like with the universe, our measurement of the expanding cloud of dynamite gives us no information as to how long it sat there before exploding. We only know what we can glean from that single event forward.
The dynamite was created (and lit) prior to the explosion in your example. :)

Being serious again - I take it you prefer the Hawking model of the Big Bang theory over the more common theory of the Big Bang having a starting point?
avatar
DRM_free_fan: There is. History is made up of "events". And the universe cant have an infinite number of events in its past; it must have had a beginning.
History is a human term, doesn't mean the universe had events. btw...you realise all you are trying to argue here could be turned around on your god as well?

avatar
DRM_free_fan: Well if you can believe in the first, why do you object to believing in the second?
Because it is not so complex and not so inexplainable, ohh and it doesn't want me to worship it and not masturbate.

avatar
DRM_free_fan: Correct and no magic required! :D

Aristotles "Unmoved Mover"

A Creator who made all things (including time).

To recap:

1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.
Yeah that was thousands of years ago and now we know more? 3 is by no means certain, 4 has been proven wrong, and 5 is pure conjecture regardless.
Besides, even the premise is pure BS. How could you do anything, if there was no time? Even having the thought of doing anything is not possible without time.
Post edited November 26, 2014 by jamotide
avatar
DRM_free_fan: 1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.
Oh dear. I think you've missed about 115 pages of this thread...
avatar
YaTEdiGo: 1) We all know about Sodoma
2) Jews or mouslims doesn't care about the New Testament, so again thinking your religion is the ONLY and CORRECT one right? LOL
3) There are many words related to the burqa in the Koran hijab is one of them, but I already said that the burqa is not named perse in the Koran, but it is pretty clear that they are, again, afraid of the woman sexuality. Onan is the reason for not "waste" sperm, obviously condoms doesnt exist 2000 years ago, right? Again, hilarious. "Condoms doesn't appear in the bible" LOL

4) It proves that YOUR god is as false as the Greek Gods, if not more. THE god, if IT exists, definitively never talked with no one of your prophets, because that three books taken as facts and realities, are as ridiculous as a Lord of The Rings fan, claiming that Gandalf talks to him every night...
I just had to correct a few things:

2) Messianic Jews (numbering above 350,000) do accept the New Testament. (out of 13.7 million Jews in the world). And the New Testament is one of the holy books of Islam (they just don't think the Christians are reading it right and have added a bunch to it and manipulated ti poorly -- but they believe there is still plenty of good stuff to pull out).

http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5142&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1022
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Christian_Bible



Also, out of curiosity, do you have much contact with Christians in China? There are more Christians in China than the U.S. and I'd imagine they have quite the zeal. Many Christians in the U.S. are rather ignorant about their own religion. They tend to believe because it is what they should do to fit in, because their family is a "Christian" family or some other reason (not to say there aren't "real" Christians -- there's plenty of those too).
avatar
DRM_free_fan: 1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.
(4) has been proved wrong by science. Things can come out of nothing.

(5) does not follow from anything, unless of course you define the creator as God, in which case it's a tautology. What I mean is that it's possible that the universe was created by someone (or something), but it doesn't follow that this someone is around, that it can do anything in the created universe, or that worshiping it makes any sense.

avatar
YaTEdiGo: 4) It proves that YOUR god is as false as the Greek Gods, if not more. THE god, if IT exists, definitively never talked with no one of your prophets, because that three books taken as facts and realities
No it doesn't prove anything. Take the Baha'i explanation, that God talked to each generation in a way that fitted that generation's comprehension. Just because the details are different doesn't mean that we're talking about a different God.
avatar
YaTEdiGo: Anyone that thinks that if God exists, can explain his or HER or ITS will with a "Bible" or "Coram" or "Tora" or whatever... should look around, and pay attention to the Cosmos, and check how big is the universe, and how many miracles are out there and even inside us all the f... time
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Miracles suppose the existence of God.

avatar
YaTEdiGo: to start thinking that all the bullshit in that books has zero options of being truth... more when GOD, supposed creator of the universe, tell you that women need to be covered by burkas, or that you need to circumcised, that you cannot use condoms, or that if you are gay you will go to hell, or limbo, etc, etc, etc...

In this small pale blue dot of dust in the middle of a huge almost infinite universe these stupid things are very important to the Creator of the Universe itself, YEAH SURE... is SO RIDICULOUS that I wonder how people can still believe that children fairy tales.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory.
avatar
Tallima: There's a prolific preacher (I forget which one) that firmly believes that all of the zombie movies/games/culture is specifically the work of the devil so that people will distrust the resurrected in Christ.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Don't believe at face value what any preacher says. The test is whether it is in the Holy Bible or not. (Also see Acts 17:11)
avatar
Elmofongo: Exactly when you look at how small we are compared to this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Earth%27s_Location_in_the_Universe_%28JPEG%29.jpg

Wbat makes us so special.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Here is the thing about me though. I usuallly keep my thoughts on Gods and the reasons for our excistance to myself. I do not want to convince you there is no God that is something I keep to myself. Something that some Atheists try to impose on people. And I dislike discussing this topic because in the end it all ends in a matter of opinion. If you want to believe in God go ahead I am not stopping you. If you are content then thats all there is to it. And again it was only my opinion as to why I dislike the concept of Missions. I am not trying to prevent them. I just dislike the idea. But I will answer the questions you asked of me.

1. I recognize that there were. Same with Islam there were former Jews and Christians that converted to Islam.

2. I would not know I have to see it for myself to understand the Messianic Prophecies.

3. Are you expecting that I would say that Atheism is either just as or even more arrogant in their belief than people of the Abrahamic Faiths? The thing is that again this is just my opinion in that if I was in the shoes of a person worshiping a different faith entirely. But in the end I just don't believe in any Faiths or gods.

4. I have no comment

5.Ditto

6. Still consider the vastness of this Universe and wonder why does this Abrahamic God favors us so much instead of the rest of his created universe? For all we know he probably created in even better race then us in some far off planet.

But than again who I am to question a god. A god can do whatever it wants when it wants since it is all powerful.
avatar
ET3D: You clearly didn't understand what I said. You're confusing several matters: whether God could exist, whether God would care, and whether God would say things such as these.

Thinking about it, it's possible that you simply have no idea what the scriptures say, so while it's easy for you to lash at religion, at what people have done in its name, it's based on ignorance. I'm not an expert either, but I think I'm less biased.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Couldn't have put it better - on both points.

avatar
ET3D: People have done, and continue to do, evil things regardless of religion. The greatest senseless killings of millions of people in the 20th century, which beat everything ever done in the name of religion, were done by rulers who were decidedly anti-religion.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Quote: "Tremendous harm has been done in the name of religion. But then more people have been murdered in the last century by those who loved to hate religion, than in all of the religious wars in the whole of history, and then some! Stalin, consistent with most Communist programmes, was fiercely atheistic, and Hitler, with his hatred for religious authority, killed more over 30 million people between them. We can then add a couple of million people who died due to the brutality of Pol Pot. What about the number of people killed by Mao Tse Tung? Estimates vary between 40 to 80 million or ever more, but it's impossible to calculate accurately because he deliberately starved so many people. No matter how many times people repeat the mantra 'religion is the cause of most wars and violence', the facts of history tell a different story.

Mao and Stalin were not merely killers who happened to be atheists. The atheistic philosophy of twentieth-century Communism provided the excuse. They had a desire to eliminate religion and felt no problem with destroying human life, as they believed they were accountable to no moral authority higher than themselves." unquote.
Mussolini was in Atheist and he was not Communist. Besides how I see Stalin did what he did because he wanted the entire country to basically swear ultimate loyalty and servitude to him. He thinks ANY organization, including organized religion, as a threat to his power and government.

But just because he these men were atheist does not reflect Athism in its entirety. Even as an Atheist myself I do not approve and condemn the actions of Stalin and Mussolini, just as I would condemn the actions of the Catholic Church's Inqusition and Protestant Witch Hunts of the 17 Century and the current crisis of ISIS killing minority races in Iraq.
Post edited November 26, 2014 by Elmofongo
avatar
jamotide: Only if you assume there have been "events".
avatar
DRM_free_fan: There is. History is made up of "events". And the universe cant have an infinite number of events in its past; it must have had a beginning.

avatar
jamotide: Why can't some form of matter or energy simply always have existed? Sort of like your god, but not so complex and not so inexplainable.
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Well if you can believe in the first, why do you object to believing in the second?

avatar
jamotide: So your conclusion is some other thing must have always existed to which these problems magically don't apply? :D
avatar
DRM_free_fan: Correct and no magic required! :D

Aristotles "Unmoved Mover"

A Creator who made all things (including time).

To recap:

1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.
Seems that your knowledge about the universe came from some centuries ago.

Solution: Read more.
avatar
YaTEdiGo: 1) We all know about Sodoma
2) Jews or mouslims doesn't care about the New Testament, so again thinking your religion is the ONLY and CORRECT one right? LOL
3) There are many words related to the burqa in the Koran hijab is one of them, but I already said that the burqa is not named perse in the Koran, but it is pretty clear that they are, again, afraid of the woman sexuality. Onan is the reason for not "waste" sperm, obviously condoms doesnt exist 2000 years ago, right? Again, hilarious. "Condoms doesn't appear in the bible" LOL

4) It proves that YOUR god is as false as the Greek Gods, if not more. THE god, if IT exists, definitively never talked with no one of your prophets, because that three books taken as facts and realities, are as ridiculous as a Lord of The Rings fan, claiming that Gandalf talks to him every night...
avatar
Tallima: I just had to correct a few things:

2) Messianic Jews (numbering above 350,000) do accept the New Testament. (out of 13.7 million Jews in the world). And the New Testament is one of the holy books of Islam (they just don't think the Christians are reading it right and have added a bunch to it and manipulated ti poorly -- but they believe there is still plenty of good stuff to pull out).

http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5142&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1022
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Christian_Bible

Also, out of curiosity, do you have much contact with Christians in China? There are more Christians in China than the U.S. and I'd imagine they have quite the zeal. Many Christians in the U.S. are rather ignorant about their own religion. They tend to believe because it is what they should do to fit in, because their family is a "Christian" family or some other reason (not to say there aren't "real" Christians -- there's plenty of those too).
Accepting the other 2 columns of your political sects lies, means nothing, ecumenism is other of your "one god unique and true" lies, that you tell in order to be accepted by your own brainwashed fellows.

I know Chinese Christians of course, they are the pure example of how naive some Chinese people can be sometimes. Of course they don't know almost NOTHING about the crimes of the Church, or the dark age of superstition monotheistic religions bring to all us in Europe.


avatar
ET3D: No it doesn't prove anything. Take the Baha'i explanation, that God talked to each generation in a way that fitted that generation's comprehension. Just because the details are different doesn't mean that we're talking about a different God.
Then all your speech about "god rules" in fairy tales books is simply NOTHING.
Post edited November 27, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
avatar
YaTEdiGo: Then all your speech about "god rules" in fairy tales books is simply NOTHING.
You really can't think logically, can you? It's amazing how you answer everything in the same silly manner. I'm not sure why I keep hoping that you'll respond intelligently at some point.
avatar
YaTEdiGo: Then all your speech about "god rules" in fairy tales books is simply NOTHING.
avatar
ET3D: You really can't think logically, can you? It's amazing how you answer everything in the same silly manner. I'm not sure why I keep hoping that you'll respond intelligently at some point.
As I told you before, LOGIC, has nothing to be with the BIBLE, KORAN or the TORA, you can continue raging and insulting my intelligence at any point. But I am sorry, I cannot accept LOGIC & LEGENDS (Aka Fairy Tales) in the same sentence.

Cheers.
Post edited November 27, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
Who necroed this?
avatar
Elmofongo: 6. Still consider the vastness of this Universe and wonder why does this Abrahamic God favors us so much instead of the rest of his created universe? For all we know he probably created in even better race then us in some far off planet.
We don't know that there is another race in the universe. We look at the vastness of the universe and we think "it makes sense that we're not the only sentient race", but we don't really know. Perhaps one day we'll find another race, and another revelation from God will tell us that these other people also have souls. Or perhaps God did try to approach them but they didn't want to accept the message. Or perhaps we will never find another race.


avatar
Elmofongo: But just because he these men were atheist does not reflect Athism in its entirety.
Indeed. Atheism by its nature is an anti-belief. It doesn't force any particular rules or beliefs, except for saying that God doesn't exist. That's unlike religion which does create both a set of rules and a world view.

As I said regarding the awful things done in the name of religion, it's all people. People do bad things. Religion and communism start from a good place. Religious prophets were social reformers, trying to get people to behave in a good way. Communism was meant to address the problem of downtrodden workers in capitalist societies. But people are capable of transforming any grand idea into a terrible execution.
avatar
Rohan15: Who necroed this?
Go back the thread to check. But it wasn't in the past few days. Either that or just trying to get around YaTEdiGo's illogical bias makes it feel like it's been ages.
avatar
YaTEdiGo: you can continue raging
It's not me who's raging. I can see the spittle in your mouth.
Post edited November 27, 2014 by ET3D
avatar
ET3D: It's not me who's raging. I can see the spittle in your mouth.
Arguments over LOL xD, whatever ...
Post edited November 27, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
avatar
Elmofongo: stuff
You know you can have the correct views for the wrong reasons and incorrect views for the right ones, right? Besides being right and right or wrong and wrong. :P

And for aliens, according to Google the Pope is fine with baptizing aliens. The Vatican view is that "Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul".That's a simpler and better view than what you'll find from most.
avatar
Elmofongo: stuff
avatar
MaximumBunny: You know you can have the correct views for the wrong reasons and incorrect views for the right ones, right? Besides being right and right or wrong and wrong. :P

And for aliens, according to Google the Pope is fine with baptizing aliens. The Vatican view is that "Any entity – no matter how many tentacles it has – has a soul".That's a simpler and better view than what you'll find from most.
And if the day arrives that an alien being tries to convert us to thier faith?

Like the Covenant in the Halo games?

That would be very interesting.
avatar
Rohan15: Who necroed this?
It's been a while. But I probably looked like your avatar ;-)