It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
The trap all intelligent design advocates predictably fall in is that they completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what a scientific theory actually is.
Intelligent design is not a scientific theory. Neither is it particularly intelligent.
avatar
Lou: Sorry to hear that. No one will ever burrn in hell for not believing in Intelligent Design. In fact hell was never ment to have a single person in it. Its very clear from the Bible that hell was created for Satan and his fallen angel followers.

You're right about the part where no one will ever burn in hell, since hell does not exist. It is also very clear from the bible that it is not a coherent, carefully constructed treatise, but instead a hodgepodge collection of documents that blatantly repeat and contradict eachother. Hence the bible cannot be given any importance in a serious discussion. It is not a unbiased and factual source.
You can't honestly expect to use those kind of arguments as a dodge. You have been thoroughly beaten in this discussion, as is the norm of defeat and humiliation for all intelligent design crackpots, and the only thing blocking you from realizing this is your own unwarranted hubris.
Post edited April 20, 2010 by stonebro
avatar
stonebro: Intelligent design is not a scientific theory. Neither is it particularly intelligent.

Maybe they should change it to idiotic design. It'd explain the myriad design flaws in the human body and the best part is they can keep the initials
avatar
stonebro: Intelligent design is not a scientific theory. Neither is it particularly intelligent.
avatar
Aliasalpha: Maybe they should change it to idiotic design. It'd explain the myriad design flaws in the human body and the best part is they can keep the initials

Impotent Doctorates?
I'm not looking to argue or prove creation or evolution right or wrong. I just want to suggest that perhaps this debate is missing the bigger picture, which to me is whether or not anyone should be "forced" to learn (aka educated) about evolution or creation or anything for that matter. Don't get me wrong, I believe education is important, but IDEALLY I don't believe it's my place to say that someone must learn what I believe they should know. I admit though that life doesn't always work ideally, but that doesn't mean I should stop trying. I believe the best I can do is let my actions speak for what I know and believe. From those actions, people that actually want to know what I know, will seek me (or others) out, then I can tell them what I know and believe and they can choose to accept or reject it. If I force my beliefs on people they will most likely just hate me and become biased against anything I or anyone else like me would say to them, whether or not it is true. I hope this makes sense but it is just my thoughts after all, and in the end that is all any of us have.
FYI, I believe in creationism and believe I'm a Christian (I'm a Seventh-day Adventist to be exact) but while I believe God is real and creation is true I believe it is wrong for me to force my beliefs on anyone. To me, being Christian is not about belonging to some group or club, or about always being right and knowing everything, because I'm FAR from it :) but being Christian is exactly what the name implies, to behave like Christ. I do my best to have my actions be like Jesus Christ, though I fail often. Whether Jesus is real or not, there is nothing in His actions that would allow me to be anything but selfless, so to call myself a Christian I must try to be the same. Believe it or not, but the Jesus from the Bible is a LOT different from the mainstream "Christianity" that often gets noticed, political agendas and power or being "right" or better than others are not something a selfless person would do. Please don't take that to mean I think I'm better than other Christians, I am not at all better than anyone else on this planet. There are many good Christians out there, just as there are many kind and caring atheists etc., we all have our beliefs and truths, it's our actions that really matter, and unfortunately not everyone claiming to be Christian have been Christ-like in their actions. Sorry to be preachy, I know I didn't really help settle the debate between which is the truth (not that I could lol) I just wanted to share a different view with you all and hope that we can all keep an open mind to a universe full of things yet to be discovered let alone understood.
There's no controversy, just facts proven by science, everything else belongs to myth.
Sir Darwin was right, move along and grow up, USA.
avatar
Kylton: I'm not looking to argue or prove creation or evolution right or wrong. I just want to suggest that perhaps this debate is missing the bigger picture, which to me is whether or not anyone should be "forced" to learn (aka educated) about evolution or creation or anything for that matter.

Should you be 'forced' to learn math? Or grammar? Or history? I agree you shouldn't be forced to learn something that amounts to nothing more than belief. Evolution does not fall into that category. It's a scientific theory that has overwhelming evidence to support it and has been through - and survived - rigorous scientific review. Intelligent Design hasn't.
There's a world of difference between being forced to learn *about* something and being indoctrinated with it. Modern science education is intended to teach kids *about* evolution, which, regardless of whether you personally believe in it or not, is the foundation of modern biology and medicine. It can't simply be dismissed out of hand if you expect the next generation of students to advance medicine and work in the life sciences, in the same way that pilot training can't be dismissed if you want to keep an airline running.
Intelligent design, on the other hand, makes no testable scientific claims. It's purely a negative assertion - evolution is wrong, throw it away. All ID 'research', without exception, has contented itself to disproving evolution. Not one ID paper I've ever seen or heard of has offered any productive line of inquiry beyond that. Any positive assertions made are little more than veiled appeals to religious authority, and it doesn't take much imagination to see how well medicine got on with religion in the driver's seat. The medical advances of Greece and Rome, with the likes of Galen and Hippocrates, were reduced to little more than superstition and conjecture until the much-loathed (by IDers) 'secularism' of the Renaissance and subsequent centuries allowed Western culture to regain some lost ground there.
If you want to see cancer remain incurably fatal, watch as antibiotic-resistant bacteria claw back the gains of 20th century medicine and see millions die every year from new strains of influenza, by all means, back ID. It's the winning horse in that race.
Post edited April 20, 2010 by dawvee
I'm really starting to think that someone, somewhere, wants people to regress to the cultural state that was common before French and American revolution... If you don't know what I am talking about - think of the times before Encyclopedia, Print press, Schools separated from the church, Christopher Columbus (you know, when people where 100% sure that the Earth is a plate created by God, and wanted to burn everyone who said it's round and not the center of the universe), Marco Polo, ...
I mean, why not? It was easier to control masses back then. Just tell them it's God's will for you to be the King/Pope, and they will follow into war or slavery...
And how best to achieve this, but to ruin schools, which are the only protection from ignorance... and grand return of some theories that were debunked back in 1800s.
And there is no discussion with stupid people... because they can not understand what you are trying to tell them.
There is only one side that can prosper from this regression, and that is not God, but those organizations that want us to think they speak in his name, and do not pay taxes...
Anyway, hilarious topic.
Good to see there are smart people left...
avatar
Durandir: God, is he not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? In order to fully be that, he must know everything that will happen ... we are all puppets on a string. We have no free will, because everything that happens have already been decided by the fact that God knows it will happen ... If we do something, anything, we just did what we was supposed to do. Everything from the moment you are born to the day you die have already been decided for you. You have no saying in the matter.

God's omniscience is akin to time travel, not predestination. God can "see" the future directly, but this does not mean that the future he sees is definite. God uses his knowledge of the future to try to improve the past, and if he succeeds the future then changes.
Throughout the Bible there are points where God warned someone about an outcome, either directly or through a prophet; if they didn't listen the thing that was foretold came to pass exactly as predicted, but if they did listen and changed things it did not come to pass and God then explained what the newly-written future now held.
God had a plan for each of these people, but he didn't actually force them to make the choices he wanted them to make. That doesn't sound like a puppet master to me.
avatar
Durandir: God, is he not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? In order to fully be that, he must know everything that will happen ... we are all puppets on a string. We have no free will, because everything that happens have already been decided by the fact that God knows it will happen ... If we do something, anything, we just did what we was supposed to do. Everything from the moment you are born to the day you die have already been decided for you. You have no saying in the matter.
avatar
Arkose: God's omniscience is akin to time travel, not predestination. God can "see" the future directly, but this does not mean that the future he sees is definite. God uses his knowledge of the future to try to improve the past, and if he succeeds the future then changes.
Throughout the Bible there are points where God warned someone about an outcome, either directly or through a prophet; if they didn't listen the thing that was foretold came to pass exactly as predicted, but if they did listen and changed things it did not come to pass and God then explained what the newly-written future now held.
God had a plan for each of these people, but he didn't actually force them to make the choices he wanted them to make. That doesn't sound like a puppet master to me.

So you're saying "god" is not omniscient nor omnipotent? That he doesn't know what will happen, or what choices people will make?
avatar
Durandir: God, is he not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? In order to fully be that, he must know everything that will happen ... we are all puppets on a string. We have no free will, because everything that happens have already been decided by the fact that God knows it will happen ... If we do something, anything, we just did what we was supposed to do. Everything from the moment you are born to the day you die have already been decided for you. You have no saying in the matter.
avatar
Arkose: God's omniscience is akin to time travel, not predestination. God can "see" the future directly, but this does not mean that the future he sees is definite. God uses his knowledge of the future to try to improve the past, and if he succeeds the future then changes.
Throughout the Bible there are points where God warned someone about an outcome, either directly or through a prophet; if they didn't listen the thing that was foretold came to pass exactly as predicted, but if they did listen and changed things it did not come to pass and God then explained what the newly-written future now held.
God had a plan for each of these people, but he didn't actually force them to make the choices he wanted them to make. That doesn't sound like a puppet master to me.

Does God watch Lost? Did He know how it was all gonna turn out in season 1 or stop Himself from using His special powers so He could still enjoy it? Oh..and can you ask Him if i really need to drink so much water and eat 5 a day fruit or veg cos it's a real pain in the ass.
Thanks. And tell Him i said hi.
For a really good example of how omniscience regarding the future might work, you should read Frank Herbert's Dune. Knowing the future is depicted as a trap that the prescient one can't escape. Although I guess some people might take offense at God being depicted that way...
avatar
Lou: Sorry to hear that. No one will ever burrn in hell for not believing in Intelligent Design. In fact hell was never ment to have a single person in it. Its very clear from the Bible that hell was created for Satan and his fallen angel followers.

But unfortunately many Christians subscribe to the believe or burn 'reinterpretation'.
Let's not forget to mention the countless lives lost and ruined in the name of religion be it war, ostracizing, genocide, etc.
avatar
CrashToOverride: Let's not forget to mention the countless lives lost and ruined in the name of religion be it war, ostracizing, genocide, etc.

Yeah well science isn't innocent either you know. Just look at how many people gravity has killed!