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General discussion (archive)Teach the Controversy(292 posts)(292 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 21, 2010
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Sielle: If I can change the outcome of the future that he sees, then he can't actually see the future at all.

That's not what I'm saying at all. He specifically told people that if they didn't do X then Y would happen, but if they did then Z would happen instead. God can see all possible futures, but it's down to the individual person to pick which one will actually happen.
God doesn't always reveal the alternate future in advance for his own reasons--e.g. when King Solomon was asked for what he wanted and ended up asking for wisdom he was also promised riches and honour and so forth as well, but God didn't actually reveal this until after he had made that choice; if this had been known in advance Solomon would have obviously gone with wisdom no matter what, but God wanted it to be a surprise reward for choosing wisdom over greed.
One could certainly argue that since God knows which one they are going to pick before he even warns them he shouldn't waste his time warning the ones who won't listen, but he does so anyway for his own reasons (perhaps so that other people can then learn from them).
Post edited April 21, 2010 by Arkose
Posted April 21, 2010
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Sielle: If I can change the outcome of the future that he sees, then he can't actually see the future at all.
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Arkose: That's not what I'm saying at all. He specifically told people that if they didn't do X then Y would happen, but if they did then Z would happen instead. God can see all possible futures, but it's down to the individual person to pick which one will actually happen.
God doesn't always reveal the alternate future in advance for his own reasons--e.g. when King Solomon was asked for what he wanted and ended up asking for wisdom he was also promised riches and honour and so forth as well, but God didn't actually reveal this until after he had made that choice; if this had been known in advance Solomon would have obviously gone with wisdom no matter what, but God wanted it to be a surprise reward for choosing wisdom over greed.
One could certainly argue that since God knows which one they are going to pick before he even warns them he shouldn't waste his time warning the ones who won't listen, but he does so anyway for his own reasons (perhaps so that other people can then learn from them).

If there is true omniscience then there isn't a choice to be made. Your god would already know every choice that ever was, or ever will be made, even how his "changes" would affect the future. If he's pretending to give you a choice he's just insulting you because he already knows what you're going to say/do.
So either freewill/choice is a fraud, or your god isn't omniscient. Take your pick.
Posted April 21, 2010
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OmegaX: http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/
The letter from the creator of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster also illustrates some valid points :P

The universe as we observe it, makes a lot more sense when you opt to make a giant flying ball of pasta your shepherd.
"Why do bad things happen to good people."
"Our Lord is Made of Pasta. He doesn't give a shit about people."
Posted April 22, 2010
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CrashToOverride: Let's not forget to mention the countless lives lost and ruined in the name of religion be it war, ostracizing, genocide, etc.
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ceemdee: Yeah well science isn't innocent either you know. Just look at how many people gravity has killed!

I love you. You know that, right?
Posted April 22, 2010
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Arkose: He knows what will happen, which is why he tries to alter events to get a different outcome. It's still up to the person to actually do as God asks. If the person doesn't obey God has a contingency plan. For instance, God wanted the Israelites to enter the promised land, but because of their unfaithfulness he sent them wandering in the desert for 40 years until a new, more faithful generation came pass; God's end result was still achieved, just delayed a bit (and when you're an immortal being, waiting 40 human years isn't an issue).

I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.
Posted April 22, 2010
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Arkose: He knows what will happen, which is why he tries to alter events to get a different outcome. It's still up to the person to actually do as God asks. If the person doesn't obey God has a contingency plan. For instance, God wanted the Israelites to enter the promised land, but because of their unfaithfulness he sent them wandering in the desert for 40 years until a new, more faithful generation came pass; God's end result was still achieved, just delayed a bit (and when you're an immortal being, waiting 40 human years isn't an issue).
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stonebro: I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.

Poe's Law in action.
Posted April 22, 2010
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Arkose: He knows what will happen, which is why he tries to alter events to get a different outcome. It's still up to the person to actually do as God asks. If the person doesn't obey God has a contingency plan. For instance, God wanted the Israelites to enter the promised land, but because of their unfaithfulness he sent them wandering in the desert for 40 years until a new, more faithful generation came pass; God's end result was still achieved, just delayed a bit (and when you're an immortal being, waiting 40 human years isn't an issue).
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stonebro: I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.

I think he is being serious business.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Teach the Controversy(292 posts)(292 posts)
(292 posts)