I know, right? My son is all "Daddy play with me", my wife likes me to pay attention to her sometimes, and those bad guys aren't going to stop themselves. :)

I just ISOd his posts and they are a lot fewer than I thought, especially while others are in the spotlight. He took part in both lynches, jumping on flub 2 lines after he came and saw what was going on. He called for hammering right away without waiting for Wyrm and then vote Wyrm to motivate him to talk... And that's on a very quick glance. I will re-read him once again this but how sure exactly are you (everyone) of mchack??

There can be only one.

I'm not overly sure of mchack, but I'm more sure of him being town than of HSL. Mchack wasn't the only one to jump on me for "vanishing" yesterday, and voting Flub after that CL claim is hardly surprising. The bit about considering whether Flub would flip town (after Flub's claim) is concerning, but I can put that down to relative new-ness and not considering the implications before posting. Mchack hasn't been around much and has participated in what, two games before this?

only caught up now (back from work)
oh, man. I really need time to go through all the posts in detail (and comment where needed), but first off: Is this that casting shade thing, everyone was talking about? I really had to go back and read my posts again, to see what you are talking about. Is it this:?
(also dedo, the bit about waiting for wyrm is in there, too. so ... idk don't do that.)

there was not much consideration in there only making clear that lift would have had to be next if he had claimed wrongly (which would have been proven by flub flipping town. (off-topic: I kinda like saying flub flip... these days)
As for flubs claim? It started of with Bullshit and went on with a lie (course we didn't know then, but now, that it was indeed a false claim.) Didn't care at all about it when voting. I was convinced by lifts claim, because of the implications it would have had to him had it been a lie.

Obviously but let's try to make the lynch count and think every possibility true.

Sure, I noted that in the context of readily bussing the buddy which someone brought up earlier. It may be a normal vote, yes, but it may be a quick bus so others don't wonder what's up.


It's not intended as casting shade but looking at all possibilities. Whoever the CL is seems to be doing good enough work so free passes can't be just given away left and right.

As for the hammer I didn't mean to say that you hammered yourself despite him. I was looking at #427 where you gave your green light for the hammer saying that Wyrm can still comment afterwards going by the assumption that he just wanted everyone to make an appearance.

Flub's claim was not my point here. I believe it was Lift or Trent who mentioned earlier that if they were scum in such situation they would insta-lock their vote on their buddy to blend in as much as possible. That just clicked with the way you voted, even though it's doesn't automatically mean it's the case.

Forgot one from the last post by bookwyrm:

simply not true. I am jumping on you because, I believe you might very well be CL (more on that later) but I never jumped on you for vanishing.

yep. never said otherwise. Why do you ask? I said (and I quote) "and the inquisitor would have had to come out sooner or later" meaning exactly that. That trent could've just waited for the claim (without counter) and then protected the cop for the rest of the game without, being targeted himself.

true. it was over the top, I was just trying to point out how incredibly lucky a CL might feel when he gets protected by the alarmist at night and then the alarmist even presents himself on a silver platter and vouches that the CL can't have been recruited tonight and thus gets to keep his town points from last day which is no small feat in a C9 where each day it's uncertain, which townie might have become scum. I was trying to make a point on how I think claiming alarmist is a bad idea.

granted

So townie-you thought he'd rather work for scum and wrote an application, confusing the alarmist into maybe protecting you? and steering the inquisitor away from you because he thinks you might be the alarmist and he doesn't want to waste a night action on a townie. Looks like a viable plan for CL to me

don't get it. first you say this play would be suicide for scum you and the next sentence you say that it protected you from lynch because lynching townie-you would be a mislynch? which is it?
Well as we see the protecting part on day1 worked which is very good for a CL Bookwyrm because on Day1 he's all alone and if he only makes it to day 2 (or even day3 as he asked for in his famous post 80) he has 1 to 2 cultists on his side that can still take him to victory even if he is lynched eventually.

Well is it really a corner? you post this now that we know you weren't what you were insinuating you were (bordering on a lie, but careful never to actually claim anything) how would this be different when town-you would have been recruited? you'd still post your 5 point reasons and try to get away with it. So where's the corner in that?

ahh, yes steer the inquisitor away from you (which is exactly what a CL would want) but all non-vanilla? wouldn't you say that a soft-claim rather lures the alarmist in than steers them away?. Neat play for a CL, really.

yes exactly what you'd think about when a lynch for your scum-buddy is in progress. Can't have townies know each other for townies. Only scum knows who is town.

So what do you think Scum buddies should do: (and we know through a question from HSL to the mods that the CL could have left the Recruit instructions in the scum chat, before this day started)
a) Go both for one target at the start of the day
b) Try to distance yourself from each other so that if one goes down, the other is in the clear. (like the now confirmed cultist did by voting you with a quite shallow reasoning. Also he said he ISO'd you. Who but his cult leader could make flub work?)

again with the sowing of distrust among townies

mchack thinks bookwyrm is the CL
bookwyrm thinks HSL is the CL
HSL thinks dedo is the CL
dedo thinks the CL is probably HSL or maybe mchack

I have gone over the thread again and I don't think mchack is the CL, if he is then he has me fooled. So I have no interest in voting him.

I removed my vote yesterday on bookwyrm because I said I felt I had an idea what he was trying to do, and he confirmed most of my thoughts in his post 459 of his reasoning. Although in that post his reason #2 and reason #5 conflict with each other. Hopes the CL will think he has a PR and recruit him, yet hopes any actual town PR's will know he should be left alone. If he was hoping to convince the CL to recruit him why would he not think a town PR might not choose to protect or investigate him at the same time? So is he just putting reasons out there that sound like what a town bookwyrm would do or is he really the CL trying to put up a smoke screen. I tend to lean toward a town bookwyrm in what he did, but the conflicting reasons gave me pause when I was going back over his posts.

Now between dedo and HSL, I've gone back over them again I still get the same vibe as before. I think HSL is really trying to find scum in his posts and dedo appears to be acting townie while not causing any waves with anyone (feels like he is hiding in plain sight). I have no specific post of dedo's that really was an eyebrow raising moment and there's no action he has taken that has done it either, and I think that's probably one of my biggest concerns with him. By now I would have expected dedo to take a firm stand on who he felt the CL is, especially since a mislynch now means we are in a possible mislynch incorrectly tomorrow and lose.

So I am still in the same boat as I was before, I think between the possible options dedo is my preferred choice.

Wall of text, Part 1
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...what? Are you talking about my post, since that's what you quoted? My post was a defense of you. o.O

Let me quote you: "and making him more eager to talk."

To me, that seems like wondering why I'm not here and talking. Lift was the other one to wonder where I went.

How did you know there would be an inquisitor claim? How could Trent have known there would be an inquisitor claim? If the role didn't exist, then Trent could have spent the entire Day waiting for a claim that wasn't coming (from town).

It looks like you're using current knowledge as the basis to judge whether someone should have taken a past action, before that knowledge was actually available.

And my point is this: why are you giving any town points at all for a person protected by the alarmist when someone else entirely is known to have been recruited? If the alarmist doesn't target the same person as the CL, then the alarmist's power does absolutely nothing. The alarmist could target the CL all game and the CL wouldn't feel so much as a tickle.

You should not be giving any town points to a player who was protected by an alarmist when someone else is revealed to have been converted by the CL. None. Zero. Zilch. The protection means diddly squat in this case.

No. Vanilla Townie me thought that a vanilla townie (like me) getting converted is better for town than a town PR (like an alarmist) getting converted. Converting a town PR causes town to lose the PR, while converting a town vanilla does NOT cause town to lose a town PR.

I'd have to be a dang sight better at this game than I am in order to steer one specific PR into targeting me while at the same time steering another PR into not targeting me. And doing that as both alignments would be nearly down right magical on my part.

I'm pretty twisted, but I'm really having trouble following your logic here.

The idea is that CL would not make such a play because they can't afford to be lynched. The CL couldn't afford to be lynched on D1 or it is an instant loss, and the CL should do their level best to avoid being lynched on D2 or they may very easily lose the game anyway. If the Inquisitor exists AND the CL is lynched before LYLO, then the cult effectively loses (there might be some edge cases involving prior no lynches where this isn't true). Once the CL is dead, Town can just No Lynch until the Inquisitor gives a result on everyone; if the inquisitor gives a guilty result that flips town, then the cultist inquisitor is the next lynch (or just lynch the inquisitor first to test for truth, since town isn't at LYLO yet).

This play would be crazy for scum!me because it puts me at risk without any proportional reward. There was simply no value that this play would gain scum!me that I couldn't get with some less risky method. If the CL wouldn't make the play, and I make the play, then I'm not the CL. Town me can afford to take one for the team if people suspect me, but CL me doesn't have that luxury ESPECIALLY if I don't know whether there is an inquisitor out there ready to clean up any cultists I do make.

Yes, yes, WIFOM; we went over that D1.

Also, I'm calling BS on your saying I requested that I make it to Day 3. I've already been over this ground with Lift: provide the quote where I asked to make it to Day 3 or you can retract that misrepresentation.

Wall of text, Part 2
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The corner wasn't about whether I have a role. The corner was about my opinions on players. For example, if HSL had recruited me last night, then I'm suddenly in a bind. Lift, Hunter, and HSL were my top three, then Hunter is dead and Lift claims a town PR, I've got to either push my CL or find a reason to push someone that wasn't at the top of my list.

And yes, I will insinuate the shit out of things. By this point, I expect you're the only one that might be even vaguely surprised by this. I don't know what I'd have done if I were recruited; the idea was to leave me very little space to work with if I'm suddenly changing sides, which means others are more likely to catch on and lynch me if I change, which would be good for town (lynching a cultist). And town me wants what is good for town. Added bonus: if I scare away the CL and I'm generally read as town, that also narrows the pool of lynch targets to find the CL.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. If the CL doesn't target me, then I don't want either of the other PRs targeting me either because then they aren't targeting cult members. Hopefully all three of them go somewhere else so I'm not converted, not protected, and not investigated (which means the protection and investigation are more likely to target the CL or the CL's target). And if the CL and protection both think I'm a PR and target me, then great! No one was converted at all, which is the best case scenario for town for conversions.

...what? How do you even get that from what I said here?

1) Do you really think I could compel Flub to work under any circumstances at all? Would you also believe that I have some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you?

2) I think scum buddies are going to be looking for a townie to lynch because a mislynch puts them closer to their win-con.

3) You missed a more important bit in that post: Flub abandoned his end-of-Day 1 preferred choice for an entirely different player. What happened since the end of Day 1 to make Flub change his mind like that? Why would cultist!Flub switch from a townie that he was already willing to vote to instead vote his CL? What does that gain for the cult when the cult doesn't know whether there are any town PRs that might have detected them? What association did Flub and I have prior to that point, that we even needed to distance ourselves?

How am I sowing distrust here? This is a simple analysis of the possible cases.

-If you trust both claims, then you believe Trent and Lift cannot be the CL. It is impossible for their claims to be true AND for either of them to be CL.

-If you don't trust one of the claims, then you believe that player is lying. There is no reason at this point for a townie to expressly lie about having a PR, therefore the liar is the CL (all other cult members are dead, so the liar can't be another cult member).

-If you believe both of them are lying, then you believe that at least one townie is lying about having a power role. See above about townies lying about PRs.

-----

Mchack, you are making my head hurt. None of this looks like it has even half a leg to stand on.

10 minutes, y u so slow??

----------

Not quite. If the CL does take interest and recruit me, then he isn't recruiting a PR and hopefully town will notice whatever changes I have to make in my play and lynch me; this is an acceptable outcome for town!me. A better outcome is that CL avoids me (because I'm toxic as a recruit) AND the PRs also avoid me (because I'm toxic as a recruit), so all of them pick someone that isn't me; the chances of hitting a town PR are slightly higher (if PRs exist), but the chances of the PR(s) and CL picking the same targets is also higher (if PRs exist). And if no PRs exist, then none of the Night Action shenanigans matter anyway.

Regardless, it makes the CL have to think more (makes the choice more interesting).

Now I feel stupid... I asked flub why he dropped HSL when nothing was out yet and then entirely forgot about it after Lift came out with the investigation result. He even noted HSL looks like a N1 recruit yet he went in a completely new direction based on information that hadn't changed since the previous day.


I'm not taking a firm stand exactly because of the repercussion of a mislynch. I'm torn between 2 choices without one over-weighing the other (well, the last bit I quoted from Wyrm is a really good point that I complete forgot about), so am I supposed to just flip a coin and go with whatever the result is? Forgive me if I want to try and figure it out first. Or maybe I should have done what HSL did and said that I want to vote off him, then if he flips town I would like t continue with mchack and in the unlikely scenario he flips town I have to consider Wyrm?

your "defense" going and I paraphrase:
not sure about mchack but HSL is worse. he jumped on me when I was vanished and voted flub only because he confessed, but that he still considered that might be town is really bad. But he's new and doesn't really think before posting so, let's let it slide

So, if you'd be so kind do read my answer in #469 (where the orig post #409 is even quoted for your convinience) and tell me where the hell did you get that from and how it's not casting shade.

nope. I'm not one for real time conversation. I know about RL (got alot of that going on, too)
what I meant is "more eager to talk" about yourself and your plans (you know the thing you want people to do by voting them, putting up pressure, that stuff) and hopefully getting you either cleared or caught up so we can make a better informed choice on lynching.
Don't know how I need to explain that even since in that very same post I said "Too late to think up clever questions..." "..too sleepy" and went offline right after the post. How can you think that was me waiting for you to come online and voting you because you aren't here right now?!?

Well if the role exists it's bound to claim, else it's pointless to be cop. if it doesn't it's still no reason to claim doctor without self protect (alarmist).

And that is bad how? if there is no inquisitor then so be it, still no reason to give yourself away as the alarmist which was the point I was trying to make.

nope. but it looks like you like to cast shade.

lol, can you scroll up a bit and reread what you said about using current knowledge as the basis to judge past action? This discussion you're referring to, took place *before* the lynch of flub. an thus before "someone else entirely is known to have been recruited. sitting in a glass house...

Also what I meant with town points is exactly what I said. You keep town points *that you had already earned the day before* when protected. I did not say you get town points by being protected.

So to rehash. From your Play:
Your Gain as vanilla townie is you can sacrifice yourself for the greater good to scum and thereby "protecting" others (maybe PR) from being recruited. How is that better than not putting yourself out there and just trying good old scumhunting, that the other townies (and actual town power roles) did?

Your Gain as CL is you don't get lynched D1. Pretty huge win. And about Day 2, though I'm working on it, it doesn't seem like your Play really makes you more likely to be lynched than others either. So quite unlike you keep saying that your play would be too dangerous for CL, I don't see you being lynched for it, yet. which makes it actually a good play for CL.

yes. yes. "FYI: I should probably be lynched on Day 3, assuming I survive that long." is what you said. notice there's the specific mention of being lynched on Day 3 there and seeing as lynching is the only way to die in this game, it kinda is like asking to not be lynched priorly.
But yes you did not actually say you don't want to be lynched beforehand and yes you did not actually say that you have any power role. Just insinuating...

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...right

Trent, if you're reading this: Were you considering protecting Bookwyrm, after his Day1 play?

sorry, of course that's nothing you said, it was just me wondering why on earth you'd be thinking aloud right then about whether our town PRs may be lying... Does this become of a town vanilla? (sure you have to look at all the possibilities) but it's also something the CL very, very much wants: That town might decide to try the claims by lynching their own power roles.

interesting.

And why would HSL if he was the CL recruit exactly the one player that is on about him being scum all the time? You talked about putting yourself in a corner by making your stances known and if recruited being lynched for that change. How do you think HSL wouldn't consider exactly this? and then tell flub to go for you at the start of this day for flimsy reasons?

I for one do not think HSL would have profited from recruiting flub after all the talk flub gave yesterday on HSL being dangerous and, and asking if he has to change his avatar when recruited from HSL and asking "Do you agree HSL should be stopped before he recruits me..." and so on. It's quite ridiculous that you propose HSL would have done exactly that last night.

But for you it's something else entirely. You get flub tell him to distance himself from you first and then you each go after HSL for your first mislynch (flub even started in post #382 to get back on track to go after HSL - which would line up neatly with his last day if only there hadn't been that damning investigation by lift) to get rid of a dangerous town player.

I think it's two legs even and yes my head is also hurting, but the more you talk the less I believe you to be the vanilla townie you claim.

Also for you, is this the recruit you'd take when you are HSL CL? really? really really?
let me give you a few quotes (each to HSL):

... all day 1 when flub was town. I think it's quite ridiculous to make a case that HSL did indeed choose flub after all that and then tell him to go after Wyrm.
But it is not at all ridiculous for Wyrm CL to choose him and let him go on to bash HSL helping him mislynch a dangerous townie without straying from his path. (but a bit of distancing put in, just in case anything goes wrong)

I'm getting increasingly worried by the way you keep defending wyrm. I get the feeling that maybe you are the CL after all and since quite a few people said you and wyrm are their preferred choices you don't want him to flip and see your own head on the block next. That you'd rather keep him around to have someone else but you to lynch come day 3.

First HSL then me then maybe wyrm? and with all of them dead there's no way to get to you anymore because we already lost.

So this is how I stand today:
I will follow the vote trent and lift put up
But I will not vote for HSL. He feels townie to me and I can't participate in what I strongly presume will be a mislynch.
Since I also won't vote trent nor lift (despite what wyrm might think) nor myself, that only leaves

Bookwyrm and Dedo.

I call for trent and lift to decide which to lynch and to investigate the other tonight should we get the wrong one.

Gah. My head hurts. I have been trying to go over the posts of everyone again and I still get a slight scum feeling for HSL. But that may be our basic differences. It's not the first time that we find each other scummy when actually we're both town. So I'm not the best judge of HSL. Also there is some thought that struck me: whoever is the CL seems to be thinking somewhat similar to me, at least in respect to flubb being the best recruit, in spite of my pointing this fact out on D1. HSL usually thinks quite differently from me, so I doubt he would have converted flubb. That is of course WIFOM, but since WIFOM is swingy, I find it sometimes useful to go back to the basics before the application of WIFOM. And if I look for players who seem to follow tought patterns similar to mine the two that spring to mind are dedo and you. Both Bookwyrm and HSL play very differently from me. So I wonder whether either of them really would have recruited flubb.

I will exclude the possibility that you are the CL yourself, since your claim would have been just a too brazen gamble without any need to take that risk. I also agree with you on the feeling that mchack is genuinely playing for town. Both today and Yesterday - and we know that none of the players currently alive changed their alignment last night, so we can include Yesterday's play in our analysises.

So, to summarize: you are torn between bookwyrm and dedo, I am torn between dedo and HSL. ... Maybe it is dedo after all. There is no single tell that is strong enough to convict him, but he may very well be the CL skating by on a reasonably towny looking act...