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Tantrix: Man, I really should back-up my games I bought...
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Arkose: For backing up it's best to copy the steamapps folder manually rather than using the integrated feature. You can paste steamapps back into a new Steam install just fine, and when and if Steam dies you can simply dump in a couple of cracks and you're good to go.

Thanks for the tip, I will try that out after my exams, I iwll have a one terrabyte card then.
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Red_Avatar: If something is priced much higher than you feel it's worth it, and the alternative is to get it for free, guess what most people will do?

There's a problem with that, you know. You seem to assume that there is a line (perhaps quite blurry and subjective - no matter) over which a price is "too high" for a game of given quality (this results in piracy) and below which the pirates would gladly buy the game...
Do you really believe that ?
If the alternative is getting something for free - do you really think "most people" might EVER prefer paying ANY price ?
Also - saying that only bad games get pirated is like saying that only ugly women get raped. Sure - you can argue that the rapist may think "I wouldn't dare hurt such a beautiful woman D: !", but I think that it's more intuitive to assume that if a person is wicked enough to rape someone, he'd rather go for as high-value a target as he can get.
The only way to efficiently fight piracy is to make it socially unacceptable and embarrassing (thank you, Confucius). Let's face it - people do it because they have friends who accept this kind of behavior (and most likely - do so themselves). If pirating a game was perceived akin to, IDK, farting in public, piracy rates may drop to rare, isolated cases.
At this point, each of us can do our part on a personal level by either avoiding contact or having lengthly conversations with pirates we know both IRL and on the web...
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Vestin: There's a problem with that, you know. You seem to assume that there is a line (perhaps quite blurry and subjective - no matter) over which a price is "too high" for a game of given quality (this results in piracy) and below which the pirates would gladly buy the game...

Don't think in such absolutes - the world isn't black or white you know. It's about targeting those that are willing buy games - those who aren't, are already a lost cause anyway. Most of those who wouldn't buy a game are those who can't afford to buy a game so they don't represent lost sales anyway.
However, a much more important group, is those who can afford games but maybe not at full price, or who are more selective about which games they would want to pay for. Convincing them to pay for a game is where the most profit is to be made since this is a size-able group which can still be influenced.
Many pirates download to get an idea of the game and either don't buy it, buy it at retail price, or wait for the price to come down to a level they're willing to pay for. It's up to the publisher & developer to push them from not buying it to buying it or to even making them buy it at full price.
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Vestin: Do you really believe that ?
If the alternative is getting something for free - do you really think "most people" might EVER prefer paying ANY price ?

Except now you're twisting my words to say something I never said. I don't know the numbers or facts and neither do you because no-one does but I can say what I've seen on many forums I've been to. This is not about getting most pirates to pay for software because that's insane. Most pirates can't afford the full priced game and even though no numbers are known, you just need to look at Asia to see the biggest market for pirates. It's a lot easier to find an illegal copy there than an original.
What this is about, though, is getting those who CAN afford the game to buy it. It's as simple as that. These days, however, instead of convincing this vital group, they alienate them by reducing the value of the game you buy by all kinds of systems like tying it to Steam, making it impossible to resell.
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Vestin: Also - saying that only bad games get pirated is like saying that only ugly women get raped. Sure - you can argue that the rapist may think "I wouldn't dare hurt such a beautiful woman D: !", but I think that it's more intuitive to assume that if a person is wicked enough to rape someone, he'd rather go for as high-value a target as he can get.

That's the third time you managed to twist my words to say something I never said. Where do you get that only bad games would get pirated? That's ridiculous. I said that the pirating of mediocre games can be traced back to people wanting to give it a go or to at least have something to play on their expensive PCs -- this warps the (limited) piracy figures to make publishers believe that their game would have sold loads if it wasn't for piracy while this is simply not true. People pirate it because it's free, not because they would have considered buying it if they couldn't pirate it. This won't be so in all cases, but it will be so in many.
Heck, even the most terrible games will get pirated and tried and almost no-one is going to be so crazy as to pay €50 for a game that looks terrible. Since piracy is (mostly) free, people don't mind giving it a go anyway, but those aren't lost sales - in fact, they may well be potential sales. I bought quite a few games which I thought would suck but finding they were quite good - something which I'd have never found out of I hadn't tried them first. I understand not everyone is like me, but more people are than you'd think. Just look on this forum to see how many people here played these oldies for free in the past and how many still want to pay for them now.
Besides, your analogy is laughable at best. Comparing software with raping women? Come on ... .
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Vestin: The only way to efficiently fight piracy is to make it socially unacceptable and embarrassing (thank you, Confucius). Let's face it - people do it because they have friends who accept this kind of behavior (and most likely - do so themselves). If pirating a game was perceived akin to, IDK, farting in public, piracy rates may drop to rare, isolated cases.
At this point, each of us can do our part on a personal level by either avoiding contact or having lengthly conversations with pirates we know both IRL and on the web...

Believe it or not, but publishers helped make piracy more socially acceptable. They got rid of pre-release demos forcing a lot of people to pirate a game to try it, tied down reviews until release day to avoid bad press (except for positive reviews, of course) meaning we no longer have a trustworthy press to fall back on, they introduce DRM and other anti-consumer measures which stops us from reselling a game and reducing the value, they stopped allowing stores to return opened games meaning stores no longer take back games with issues or if they turn out to be crap, etc.
Now let's look at 15 years ago: most stores would gladly let you return games and many would even give a refund so buying a game was not a big risk. Demos were a rule rather than an exception and nearly any game worth buying would have gotten a demo before or close to release day so you had a chance to try it yourself before buying. Reviews would appear in magazines before games would appear on the shelves and this was at a time when magazines had a two week delay between deadline and being available in newspaper stores so you got a professional view of the game before you bought it.
Now, do you seriously think removing all the ways for us to judge a game before we want to buy it has nothing to do with people being less willing to take a risk and spending their hard earned cash on a game they aren't given the opportunity to buy?
Post edited February 26, 2010 by Red_Avatar
Let the record show that we all fart in public, we just try to keep it quiet and on the dl.
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Red_Avatar: Demos were a rule rather than an exception and nearly any game worth buying would have gotten a demo before or close to release day so you had a chance to try it yourself before buying.

There have been several recent cases of demos becoming available a week or two after the game launches, which is laughable. By then those willing to pirate it to demo it will have already done so. Most games don't have demos at all because the publishers hope they can sucker you into buying it based solely on heavy advertising and subsidised reviews.
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Red_Avatar: However, a much more important group, is those who can afford games but maybe not at full price, or who are more selective about which games they would want to pay for. Convincing them to pay for a game is where the most profit is to be made since this is a size-able group which can still be influenced.

So... they have the money and would be willing to buy good games if the prices were a LITTLE bit lower ? But WHY ? If they are willing to resort to piracy - why would they bother buying a game at all ? The inconvenience they get from pirated copies is so insignificant that the game would have to be below production costs for them to be attractive...
Also - you still have the question of why they should not spend the extra cash on something else...
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Red_Avatar: Many pirates download to get an idea of the game and either don't buy it, buy it at retail price, or wait for the price to come down to a level they're willing to pay for.

If they treat it as a demo, they're (arguably) not really the kind of people we're talking about.
If they don't... why buy a game you've already beaten ? Why pay for something you got for free in the first place ?
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Red_Avatar: It's up to the publisher & developer to push them from not buying it to buying it or to even making them buy it at full price.

While I know what you mean, I can't help but shudder at the thought that it's "up to the publisher" to convince people not to do immoral and illegal things (as in - "NOT to simply play through the game without buying it").
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Vestin: Do you really believe that ?
If the alternative is getting something for free - do you really think "most people" might EVER prefer paying ANY price ?
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Red_Avatar: Except now you're twisting my words to say something I never said.

No, I'm asking a question that needs to be asked. You suggested that it's obvious that "most people" would prefer something free over something expensive. I'm pointing out that perhaps "most people" would prefer something free regardless of the price given.
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Red_Avatar: This is not about getting most pirates to pay for software because that's insane.

What was heresy yesterday is a revolution today and an obviousness tomorrow ;).
Also - it's sad that you didn't even say "all" but just "most" and called it impossible...
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Red_Avatar: Most pirates can't afford the full priced game (...)

Back in the day, if people couldn't afford something, they simply lived without it ;P...
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Red_Avatar: What this is about, though, is getting those who CAN afford the game to buy it. It's as simple as that.

But they don't WANT to buy the game. They have the cash, they have the possibility... but they still don't ! While some may argue that DRM causes piracy (if you ask me - it just causes A LOT of annoyance), piracy caused DRM.
There wouldn't be any DRM without piracy, but there could be piracy without DRM.
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Red_Avatar: I said that the pirating of mediocre games can be traced back to people wanting to give it a go or to at least have something to play on their expensive PCs -- this warps the (limited) piracy figures to make publishers believe that their game would have sold loads if it wasn't for piracy while this is simply not true.

"Simply" not true ? You assume you KNOW what the people who pirate games would and wouldn't do if they didn't pirate games. It doesn't help that the only common factor for defining this vast group of people is the fact that they DO pirate games, which basically means that they WOULDN'T be the same people if they didn't <insert lengthy ontological debate here>.
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Red_Avatar: People pirate it because it's free (...)

As a matter of fact - it ISN'T free. Not any more than my neighbor's car.
They just don't care.
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Red_Avatar: I bought quite a few games which I thought would suck but finding they were quite good - something which I'd have never found out of I hadn't tried them first. I understand not everyone is like me, but more people are than you'd think.

I don't think a lot of people are like you, sorry.
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Red_Avatar: Just look on this forum to see how many people here played these oldies for free in the past and how many still want to pay for them now.

I think we're getting to the bottom of this. In my eyes - pirates are the people who simply refuse to pay. We, on the other hand, are willing to buy the same thing a second or a third time, just to support GOG and the idea of DRMless games.
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Red_Avatar: Comparing software with raping women? Come on ... .

There is nothing a little rape analogy can't fix ^^'.
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Red_Avatar: Believe it or not, but publishers helped make piracy more socially acceptable. (...)

All that you pointed out afterwards is true... Ironic, isn't it ? They simply wanted to sell better...
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Red_Avatar: Reviews would appear in magazines before games would appear on the shelves (...)

That was at the cost of giving the reviewers something earlier than RTMs... I like my reviews after the release.
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Red_Avatar: Now, do you seriously think removing all the ways for us to judge a game before we want to buy it has nothing to do with people being less willing to take a risk and spending their hard earned cash on a game they aren't given the opportunity to buy?

THIS kind of piracy is, by far, the least condemnable. I believe that most pirates AREN'T like that - they get a game, play it as much as they want and then either complete it or get bored and pirate another game.
Also - keep in mind that the line is very fine...
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Arkose: There have been several recent cases of demos becoming available a week or two after the game launches, which is laughable. By then those willing to pirate it to demo it will have already done so. Most games don't have demos at all because the publishers hope they can sucker you into buying it based solely on heavy advertising and subsidised reviews.

They want to show the game as much polished as they can - it's reasonable.
Also - I feel pretty lucky, having played and enjoyed the hell out of the demos of Majesty 2, L4D2, Trine (THIS demo is better than the full game, seriously ;P) and the latest AvP... Still - there are some games where making a demo just doesn't really make sense, as the game only has value as a greater whole, rather than a sum of parts - this includes all the open-world games like GTA, AC, TeS...
Post edited February 26, 2010 by Vestin
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StingingVelvet: As for Valve, they have said they will remove Steam DRM if they go out of business on their forums... certain employees have... and supposedly if you email support and ask they will repeat that statement.
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anjohl: It's a rather weak argument which rests on "supposedly".
They have never officially said that. Also, when a company is going out of business, the last thing on their minds is spending money.
*I* trust valve, but it's just that, trust. I also hate many things they do, and some of their policies are downright draconion. But hey, $10 Spellforce Complete is hard to turn down......

I agree, you cut off the part where I said "will they actually do it? Who knows."
I was just explaining where the idea they will do so comes from. If you want Valve's true and official word on the matter, the SSA says they do NOT need to continue access to your games tomorrow, for any reason, let alone when they are closing down.
Vestin: I fear you simply don't understand the reasoning of modern gamers. If the option is there, and it's free, they'll try it, whether it's good or bad.
Heck, you're asking on a forum which is built around old games which can easily be found for free, why people would pay for a game they've already played or completed. I already gave the answer: there's plenty of people who still believe in paying for something they like but only if the price is right.
There are people with honour and people without. The people with do the right thing and the people without are not worthy of consideration
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Aliasalpha: There are people with honour and people without. The people with do the right thing and the people without are not worthy of consideration

QFT.
Spineless pirates are spineless.
They can crack this DRM quickly I think. So game is still on the DVD. Only they must crack *.exe files and some other *.dll I think. Anyway I hope Ubisoft will learn something.
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Red_Avatar: Vestin: I fear you simply don't understand the reasoning of modern gamers. If the option is there, and it's free, they'll try it, whether it's good or bad.

GodDAMNIT, Red... For the last time: IT'S NOT FREE !
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Red_Avatar: (...) there's plenty of people who still believe in paying for something they like but only if the price is right.

If the price is NOT right, these people will not buy a game at all, rather than pirate it.
Also: some food for thought.
People who claim that today's games suck so they pirate them instead are idiots. If you don't like a game, then don't buy it, don't play it, don't pirate it. By pirating it you're admitting that the game was good enough for you to at least try it.
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Vestin: GodDAMNIT, Red... For the last time: IT'S NOT FREE !
If the price is NOT right, these people will not buy a game at all, rather than pirate it.
Also: some food for thought.

Like I said, you don't get it - and arguing semantics about what the definition of "free" is won't suddenly make you right.
Your second point is not true either because you haven't thought it through. If person A pirates a game to try it, then decides it's not worth $50, he has still pirated it. If person B pirates a game to try it, finds it IS worth $50, he'll buy it yet ... he'll still have pirated it yet the pirated version functioned as a demo so is it really piracy in that case? I'm sure you'll say yes, but to me it's not.
You only mean person C who buys games on hunches and won't even try a game before buying. Let me tell you a little secret: most of these don't buy many games at all because these hunches are expensive guesses or they'll wait for a while after the game is released to hear feedback.
Seriously, re-introduce demos and you might see piracy take a nice dip. Until demos come back, piracy figures mean nothing.
In the end, pirates are a huge mix of all kinds of people and it's ignorant to all shove them on the same pile. Those who simply can't afford a game are no lost sales anyway. Those that would never pay $50 for a game even if piracy was not available, are no lost sales either.
The ones that are lost sales, are those that have the money but decide not to buy the game because they can get it free even if they thoroughly enjoy the game and would otherwise have bought it if piracy had not been an option. THEY are the real threat since they are lost sales. But I very much doubt they make even more than half of all pirates combined.
I think a publisher can make a lot more money by targeting the group of people who is willing to pay for a game even after pirating it, but only if they don't charge $50 or if they add enough things to make it worth the price tag (like an enduring online experience, an editor, allowing for mods, etc.). The measures they're taking now, completely destroy any chance of these pirates of ever buying their games AND they lose real customers who never pirate and if I were to guess, I'd say these will result in more lost sales than sales gained.
Post edited February 27, 2010 by Red_Avatar
This was made by 4chan. I found it pretty cute.
The 4 stickmen are the Prince, Jade, Sam and Enzio.
Attachments:
Post edited February 27, 2010 by Tantrix