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General discussionDoctor Who is now a female.(298 posts)(298 posts)
(298 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 21, 2017
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SirPrimalform: But by that definition the Doctor must always be white because so far s/he has only been white. Do you see my point?
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Breja: I was talking about things other than appearance. I spoke about it in some other thread already, but long story short I think there are characters who should not be "race swapped" because it would actually change something important (for example Batman - he's supposed to come from old money, the Waynes are supposed to have been a leading family in Gotham since it's founding and that obviously wouldn't work if they were african american) and characters where it realy doesn't matter (Perry White is now being played by Laurence Fishburn and I'm perfectly all right with that, he's a good casting choice and I can't think of any reason Perry's race would matter).

When I speak of things that remaind consistant I don't just mean that the Doctor was refered to with male pronouns, or the impact gender has on character (which I think it definately does, but it's not the only or most important thing that does) but also the Doctors relationships. He is Susan's grandfather, River Song's husband, the man Rose fell in love with. It's easier for me to think of his new incarnation as the same guy, when I can still say none of that has changed, even if it never comes into play. And that doesn't mean to say that as a grandmother he wouldn't love Susan just as much or anything like that, but it's a different relationship.

You know, one of my favourite books ever is The Left Hand of Darkness. which is all about a race that is "ambisexual", with no fixed sex. It's a brilliant, beautiful, phenomal book. But obviously, it's characters are written with that ambisexuality in mind from the start, as is their culture. Doctor Who was written for 50 as male, nothing else. There was never even any suggestion of Time Lords' sex not being fixed untill very recently, and even then those were rather transparent ways of telling the audience "he can regenerate into a woman and it's canon so shut it!" than laying any decent groundwork for it.

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SirPrimalform: As for humanoid aliens conveniently having the same ethnicities as humans, that's just a consequence of them being played by pesky humans, who happen to have different ethnicities.
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Breja: I know. I just like it when, if they have to have different ethnicity, instead of being white, black and asian aliens are blue and green like Andorians or something like that. Like I said, it's not a real issue for me, just something I nitpick at. Like lizardwomen having boobs in Divinity: Dragon Commander.
I completely understand your point re: Batman, although backstories are retconned all the time in comic books. If you were making Bruce Wayne African American there's no reason his entire backstory would be fixed.
I still don't quite follow your point about the Doctor's relationships though, husband for example is just a gendered term for a partner in a marriage, now she's River Song's wife. If we accept that it's canon that Time Lords can change sex when regenerating, I can't see how it poses any problems in terms of relationships. Again, Susan's grandfather - presumably Susan is aware of the possibility that her grandfather might at some point be her grandmother. The man Rose fell in love with? I see no problem there either, Rose never met any Doctor after the Tenth (although I haven't watched the latest series) and if she does meet the Thirteenth then sure, she might not fancy her. I see don't see any problems though.
Posted July 21, 2017
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SirPrimalform: I completely understand your point re: Batman, although backstories are retconned all the time in comic books. If you were making Bruce Wayne African American there's no reason his entire backstory would be fixed.
Sure, but then you end up with an entirely different character and an elseworlds story. Which I have no problem with, it's great to explore such stuff, as long as we do it separately and we don't sacrifice the "main" character for it. And have an actually worthwile story to tell, because honestly most Elseworlds stories were kinda shite, but that's a whole different can of worms.

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SirPrimalform: I still don't quite follow your point about the Doctor's relationships though, husband for example is just a gendered term for a partner in a marriage, now she's River Song's wife. If we accept that it's canon that Time Lords can change sex when regenerating, I can't see how it poses any problems in terms of relationships. Again, Susan's grandfather - presumably Susan is aware of the possibility that her grandfather might at some point be her grandmother. The man Rose fell in love with? I see no problem there either, Rose never met any Doctor after the Tenth (although I haven't watched the latest series) and if she does meet the Thirteenth then sure, she might not fancy her. I see don't see any problems though.
Well, that's kind of what I was saying before - you speak of what Susan is presumably aware of, but that's just some presumable retcon. Something that was never actually there. If that was ever set up as part of Time Lords' identity, culture, relationships I'd be fine with it. That's exactly why I brought up Left Hand of Darkness, as an example. Another one could be Deep Space Nine. They didn't actually do it, since Dax's new host in season 7 was again a woman, but had they changed it to a man I would be perfectly fine with it. Because the possiblity of Trill's swapping gender has been established and explored since the very first episode, and not just as set up to justify the change for the character at the last moment.

In the end we don't agree and what is a problem for me isn't for you, and that's fine. You see the Doctor's relationships in a different light, you don't mind the "whatever, it's regeneration we can do anything" thinking of the writers like I do. When it comes to fan-favourite stuff, long established characters and universes these things always get very subjective. Some people are still upset Kyle Katarn didn't steal the Death Star plans in Rogue One while I don't mind at all, even though I enjoyed the hell out of all his games. At some other point with some other character likely a change will be introduced that will bother you and won't bother me. That's how it always goes. As long as we don't go all angry and hateful over that it's all as it should be.
Post edited July 21, 2017 by Breja
Posted July 21, 2017
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Tauto: The announcement Jodie Whittaker will play Doctor Who in the next series brings about social commentary regarding strong female role models and leading character roles in the twenty-first century.
Who cares? I mean the Doctor's (apparent) sex doesn't really play any significant role in the narrative. I'm not an expert on the lore of the series, but from what I've seen the biology of that alien species is not really discussed in any substantial detail. So sex is just a matter of appearance, i.e. doesn't matter.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Alaric.us: So sex is just a matter of appearance, i.e. doesn't matter.
In my experience, the only people who say sex doesn't matter are the people that don't get any.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Tauto: The announcement Jodie Whittaker will play Doctor Who in the next series brings about social commentary regarding strong female role models and leading character roles in the twenty-first century.
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Alaric.us: Who cares? I mean the Doctor's (apparent) sex doesn't really play any significant role in the narrative. I'm not an expert on the lore of the series, but from what I've seen the biology of that alien species is not really discussed in any substantial detail. So sex is just a matter of appearance, i.e. doesn't matter.
Welcome back,long time no see.Who cares?Well,I don't think she will last more than one season and let's put it this way,how about a Larry Croft instead of Lara Croft? My opinion (only) is it doesn't work.Now,don't get out the pitchforks just because my opinion is not to your liking.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Tauto: Welcome back,long time no see.Who cares?Well,I don't think she will last more than one season and let's put it this way,how about a Larry Croft instead of Lara Croft? My opinion (only) is it doesn't work.Now,don't get out the pitchforks just because my opinion is not to your liking.
Thank you. As you know I don't do the whole torches and pitchforks thing. As to it not working — we'll just have to see. Maybe the actress is talented and can make it work. If not, then you are right and they'll put a stop to it after a season.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Breja: Yes, in a way I do believe that "masculinity" is one of his defining traits, and yes, becasue it's one of the things that have remained consistant.
I'm really intrigued by this comment. Admittedly, I haven't watched Doctor Who for a long time, as when I was growing up it was obviously a kids show aimed at kids and I stopped being a kid a few years ago (although I have noticed the writers have tried to change that in recent times and aimed the show more towards adults).

Here are some images of the doctors to remind you.

http://www.doctorwho.tv/50-years/doctors/

Now admittedly I grew up watching doctors two through five, but I can't imagine anyone seriously suggesting that a defining trait of those doctors was "masculinity". I mean Tom Baker kind of tried to be, but he was so hard to take seriously, but Troughton, Pertwee and Davison? Absolutely not.

I think at times they were stern, but I coulnd't imagine describing these guys as masculine, let alone suggesting that their masculinity remained consistent.

I think a chick could be stern. Of course I also think a chick could be masculine.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Tauto: Welcome back,long time no see.Who cares?Well,I don't think she will last more than one season and let's put it this way,how about a Larry Croft instead of Lara Croft? My opinion (only) is it doesn't work.Now,don't get out the pitchforks just because my opinion is not to your liking.
They did that. It's called Uncharted.
Posted July 21, 2017
Well doctor who is a tv show belonging to the "science fiction" genre.

This genre is overwhelmingly watched by males not females.

How many females have you come across in real life that talk about space travel, fighting aliens and doing superhero stuff?

Do women fantasize about being superheroes and stopping bank robberies or massive alien invasions?

Nope

This tv show will die a slow painful death. One rating down at a time.
Posted July 21, 2017
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Siegor: Timelords retain their memories after regeneration but their personalities change so this makes me actually curious about sexual identity.
The male Doctors were atracted to females (straight) so in a gender swap is she a lesbian or by being straight does she become attracted to males?
No, i think the Doctors sexuality is 'Sheldonic' in nature
Posted July 21, 2017
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SamMagel: Well doctor who is a tv show belonging to the "science fiction" genre.

This genre is overwhelmingly watched by males not females.

How many females have you come across in real life that talk about space travel, fighting aliens and doing superhero stuff?

Do women fantasize about being superheroes and stopping bank robberies or massive alien invasions?

Nope

This tv show will die a slow painful death. One rating down at a time.
Not sure what company you keep or what your family encourages its girls to do, but most of the women I know are just as interested and excited about science, engineering, fantasy, sci-fi, games, etc.

More importantly, what does the sex of the main character have to do with the prevalent sex of the audience? Do you find yourself unable to relate to a female character? Is it difficult for you to play Portal, Metroid, The Longest Journey, Beyond Good and Evil, NOLF, Tomb Raider, half of the King's Quest games, etc. because the character doesn't have a pair of hairy balls? Are you avoiding books and movies with a woman in a lead role?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you may want to consider seeing a mental health professional.
Post edited July 21, 2017 by Alaric.us
Posted July 21, 2017
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SirPrimalform: You're the one who started talking about extreme feminist SJW agendas. I'm sorry, but I can't take any arguments you make seriously if you throw those kinds of terms around.
So you're going to pretend the extremist social justice, progressivist and false victim culture narratives being spewed today don't exist and permeate? There's plenty of examples of the BBC pushing this exact crap already and that's why I feel rightfully skeptical.
Post edited July 21, 2017 by ReynardFox
Posted July 21, 2017
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Tauto: Welcome back,long time no see.Who cares?Well,I don't think she will last more than one season and let's put it this way,how about a Larry Croft instead of Lara Croft? My opinion (only) is it doesn't work.Now,don't get out the pitchforks just because my opinion is not to your liking.
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paladin181: They did that. It's called Uncharted.
There you go,never heard of it.
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Tauto: Welcome back,long time no see.Who cares?Well,I don't think she will last more than one season and let's put it this way,how about a Larry Croft instead of Lara Croft? My opinion (only) is it doesn't work.Now,don't get out the pitchforks just because my opinion is not to your liking.
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Alaric.us: Thank you. As you know I don't do the whole torches and pitchforks thing. As to it not working — we'll just have to see. Maybe the actress is talented and can make it work. If not, then you are right and they'll put a stop to it after a season.
She will need to be ''special'' to make it work and if she does then hats off to her,now if I was a betting man:)
Post edited July 21, 2017 by Tauto
Posted July 21, 2017
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htown1980: I think at times they were stern, but I coulnd't imagine describing these guys as masculine, let alone suggesting that their masculinity remained consistent.
Yeah, I guess I should not have put it like that, though that is why I pu it in guotation marks. I just meant "masculinity" as "being male" not Shwarzennegger-like. You know, he was male, therefore he was masculine and not feminine.

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SamMagel: Well doctor who is a tv show belonging to the "science fiction" genre.

This genre is overwhelmingly watched by males not females.

How many females have you come across in real life that talk about space travel, fighting aliens and doing superhero stuff?

Do women fantasize about being superheroes and stopping bank robberies or massive alien invasions?

Nope

This tv show will die a slow painful death. One rating down at a time.
Really, while I don't like this decision, I don't think that's the problem. I find the whole idea that people need characters of their own gender (or skin color or age or whatever) to relate to to be idiotic. Even as kid, you when I was supposed to think girls have cooties and all that, I never had such issues. Some of my favourite movies, like Labirynth, had female protagonists. It never even occured to me that could be an issue for me.

What I do think is a problem and might hurt ratings is simply that people don't like characters they're fans of changed too much. DC comics learned that the hard way recently. No one wanted their new "twilight" Lobo, no one wanted their goatee-less Green Arrow and One More Day Superman etc. And when they went back to more familiar versions of the characters, sales immediately sky-rocketed.
Post edited July 21, 2017 by Breja
Posted July 21, 2017
My wife thinks that the female Doctor is a terrible idea for the record and feels it's just making the Doctor a woman for the sake of ticking a box. On another note, we're totally excited to see what the lady can do since we've only ever seen her as a serious dramatic role on Broadchurch (she is Danny's mom Beth).

Not that the regenerations have to serve a specific purpose, but we both feel like they're just doing it to tick a box because they can't write compelling stories much any more.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionDoctor Who is now a female.(298 posts)(298 posts)
(298 posts)