Vote Sage because it's cool.

Do you think I'll be a cultist Day Two??

1. No. But I took it as rhetoric question. But I'll spell the obvious answer out for you, just in case it wasn't: typical for trent of either alignment. So not alignment indicative.
2. That's funny. I write 'no need to argue' ... and you start an argument arguing that you didn't argue... a bit pointless, but if you insist, read your own post 131 where you argue about the word "should". That can be read as arguing that rule 19 might be a hard rule too. ... Want to continue to argue about arguing?
3. Yes, I can. For some people sometimes RL intervenes. Then one is forced to prioritize when reading and mod-posts should have the highest priority. But yes, I sometimes miss things too when reading. Especially if it's hidden in giant walls of text (I know, I produce WOTs as well)

And why should I write acknowledgements to everything that someone else saw as well? Is this a scientific dissertation now? Do you credit everything you pick up and think upon in this game to it's original author?

Obviously. Stating redeeming values would be your job. If you are town, you should know what you are doing and why you are doing it. And then it would be nice if you try to explain it. I point out how your behaviour would make sense if you are scum. Then you can reply and explain why it makes sense for you as town too. Why should I help you and write a defense of your behaviour for you? Do you yourself have no 'redeeming value and possible motivation' you can share? I don't see you defending your play - I just see you getting defensive. That's not the same thing, you know?

But I do agree on that.

Exactly. That was supposed to be the point. I read Bookwyrm's statement that the CL would be in deep trouble if he tried to convert him as a soft-claim of some unknown PR. Which doesn't make sense.

That depends. Are you a cultist now? (i.e. the CL)

No.

But do you think I have what it takes to be recruited??

Sure. You're one of the players where a change of alignment would be difficult to notice. I guess you would just continue flubbing along after changing camps with no one the wiser. Sage would be another good candidate if she isn't the CL. Actually I think she would be the one I would chose (she's prettier than anyone else here). But here of course WIFOM cuts in. Who knows what the CL will decide? Maybe (s)he'll go for a non-obvious choice instead? Or for converting a dangerous town-player like HSL? (again, if he isn't the CL already).

But speaking of Sage...
@Sage: you didn't react at all to Bookwyrm's soft-claimish statement. Even though that triggered quite some discussion in which everyone else participated to some degree. It was quite a significant statement, but you chose to ignore it. Why is that?

Didn't get that, could you elaborate?

No idea when, if I knew that I'd call it a hunch and be able to name specific points supporting it. (also probably putting my vote on them if that were the case)
Good vibes eh? I guess none so far, everyone has their own quirks I suppose.

A) Some plans don't work if they are explained before hand.

B) Please address the following apparent discrepancy:

You've already asked "And you are warning him publicly of that fact ... why?" when I said that recruiting me would make cult life interesting, and now you're asking for a more detailed explanation of what I'm hoping to do. I'm not sure how else to take this combination except "You shouldn't warn the cult of whatever you are doing, but you really need to explain the details clearly."

C) Jumping topics a little bit: I've already alluded to one of my motivations for Post 80 with my question about your CL hunting. I wasn't getting much of anything from how the game was running prior to Post 80, so I made a wave. Now we've got reactions from Trent, reactions from you, a little something from Dedo, and some glaring lack of reactions to anything from multiple people. While "jump starting" the game (for lack of a better phrase) wasn't my whole purpose, I'd say that on this particular point Post 80 was a shining success.

D) And (C) leads into my counter-point for your original Case 3. Namely, if I'm the CL, then why would I want to push town into getting to work? Posting enough to appear present and involved, without actually committing on anything, would be a brilliant way to not get caught. Why gamble when a much more sure way to the same goal is already in motion?

We have a deadline, but we also have a weekend and that means activity drops like crazy. A last minute lynch does nothing to help town so let’s put bookwyrm’s plan into action and vote so we can see where we all stand.

I am placing my vote on who it seems is trying to hide in plain sight and who’s activity level is very lacking.

Vote Sage

That was not my point. My point was, that it isn't my 'job' to provide town-compliant explanations for your behaviour. And that you asking for them is strange. If you don't want to reveal your reasons because it would invalidate your play, then don't reveal them. But then it would be still bad play for me to go on and publicly speculate about your town-reasons (which you don't want to be revealed). So I don't understand what problem you see in the fact that I only listed the possible scum-reasons I see for your play. That's what I do: if I see something off, I push at it and explain why I see it as off. Providing excuses for you (or anyone else under scrutiny) at the same time would weaken the push.

tl;dr Version:
If you want your play explained, explain it. Don't expect others to do it for you.
If you DON'T want your play explained, don't explain it - and don't expect others to explain it either.

That said, if stirring things up was part of your goal I have to grant you that it worked. I can't help the feeling that this kind of play always looks scummy to me and I am quite sure that when you are scum (which you might be), you will use it to hide behind, getting town credit for playing like you always do. And as I noted in my last post, Sage's lack of reaction is indeed noteworthy.

Therefore
unvote Bookwyrm

Unlike trent, however, who seems a bit over-eager again, I will wait for Sage's reply before deciding if I should vote her.

You keep casting shade with the “Trent is over eager again”. So if I find something I don’t like and cast my vote to represent that I’m over eager? What should I do then sit on my vote and do nothing but twiddle my thumbs? My vote is the most powerful tool I have and not using it is rather pointless.

Let’s see what this does for you

Unvote Sage
Vote Lift

I don't expect you (or anyone else) to explain my play for me, but I will say that if someone else does it, then the explanation is speculation. Possibly accurate speculation, but still speculation. If I (as town) do it, then it isn't just speculation.

I do expect you to consider whether I'm trying to play for town, however inept my play might be. I will point you to my word choice in 163 -> "and any possible motivation that did have redeeming value was not stated." I don't know whether you've honestly considered if my play might have some town value; your posting prior to this didn't indicate if you've at least thought about it. If you've considered it and couldn't find anything of value, then so be it; at least you've considered it.

-----

I've checked over Sage and Flub's posting, and neither has posted more than a line of anything substantial. Hunter has at least posted about having bad feelings on two particular players, even if it isn't backed by anything.

Sage has asked Krypsyn for a replacement. I'll be looking for one. Deadline may or may not be affected by that.

The Greater Good

My head's spinning a bit. You think some bourbon would help?


Let me quickly check - does self-recruiting work?



Not only that, but he ignored your post #111, and Bookwyrm627's post #113 on the matter, even though he "lectured" Bookwyrm627 on the setup in his post #115. Much later, and after it's been discussed some more, he claims it was intentional to make a certain point (post #168); not particularly inclined to take his claim at face value at this point.


Asides from this, would you say that she seems involved and scum-hunting?
Though she muddied the waters with her request to be replaced.


This, though not sure if we're thinking the same, or how it'll work out now.


On an unrelated note - what part of Greece are you visiting, if I may ask?



Heh.


Nice try. Was the context of my comment hidden in a wall of text that you missed it? Let me check... nope, you quoted it just fine.


You're right, it's not in the rules. There are, however, implications to choosing this path.


Now that Bookwyrm627 replied to this, and you two had a little back and forth - and if you're town, you should make an effort to see what others do from both sides. That's not running to his defence.
So, are you saying you made an effort but couldn't see any way his play may be coming from a town mindset? And yes, I read your post #174.


Heh.



Is this after doing a reread or going by memory?

All seems to be good with my connectivity.


Explaining it might actually ruin the plan in some situations, but I think it should be somewhat clear what the idea is and it did feel like Wyrm was telegraphing it intentionally, so if that was is case there isn't much point of all the secrecy. But as HSL stated in his last post - there might be different interpretations and mine may be wrong.

That aside, I liked the statement about listing the redeeming values being the actor's responsibility. That does make sense and that's part of the reason why I'm not saying anything about what I think it is. Especially in the context of the plan itself. It either has to come out from Wyrm himself or it's kept a secret until the time to reveal it comes.

That was the point? Then I probably read it wrong since it seemed to me that you were presenting it as if there was something out of the known possibilities to explain Wyrm's behavior. I guess I was wrong.


Because WIFOM, maybe? Also, you're known to make risky and even outrageous plays, I'd say it's kind of expected from you at this point, so if you were just playing along, having nice conversations and doing nothing interesting you'd probably appear more suspicious than not.


The only real difference between acting now and near the deadline is that we'll probably have more time to react to whatever claim might come out of it. Is that the goal here? To get an official claim to get things going?


I wouldn't call it scum-hunting in the commonly accepted way, but that doesn't automatically mean Sage is scum. She tends to take notes and stuff, then list aggregated info every now and then and latch on something there, especially if other picked up on it. Therefore that wouldn't be among the top reasons for suspecting her. Unless, of course, one is going after the less active players intentionally.

Getting a replacement is a bummer, though. I like playing with Sage and aside from that, the change will probably negate any potential reads.


Halkidiki, Kassandra to be more specific. The resort we're staying at is just after Kriopigi.

Take a look at the game up until Post 79, and then tell me how much suspicion I was under to that point. If I'm the CL, what reason do I have to rock that boat on Day 1, when we pretty traditionally knock the head off one of the louder players? I could easily push for a lurker (which I'm happy to do regardless of my alignment) and incur less suspicion on myself at the same time.

Why would I pick the route that forecasts more danger for less reward? WIFOM only gets you so far.